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I'm Dr. Carol Maxwell. It's December 14, 1999. We're at Lone Tree and Butler, the home of Mr. John L. Williams, and we're going to do his interview in Flagstaff, Arizona. Maxwell: Now then, the camera is going to be on you, and I'll be outside the camera, okay? Where were you born? Williams: I was born in Columbia, Mississippi. Maxwell: When was that? Williams: That was April 13, 1910. Maxwell: Did you grow up there? Williams: I growed up in Mississippi, yes. After I growed up in Mississippi, I left, I went toBand marriedBI went to Louisiana. Maxwell: How old were you when you married? Williams: I was twenty years old when I married. Maxwell: Twenty?! Wow! Williams: Yes, I married in Lumberton, Mississippi. Maxwell: What was your wife's name? Williams: My wife was named NitaBOnita Alexander. Maxwell: Where was she from? Williams: She was from Mississippi, around near Columbia. We separated in Louisiana on the Great Southern logging camp. And I left the Southern logging camp and went to Carthage, Mississippi. Maxwell: What sort of things did your parents do? Williams: My parents? Well, my daddy died before I was born, and my mother stayed around with her mother and father 'til.... And then she married another man. He was a preacher, Wesley Petus [phonetic spelling], and they had two children. Her first husband, they had two childrenBme and another girl, my sister. Then my sister, she died when she was about twenty years old. So she died in Bogalusa. Maxwell: What happened to your father? Williams: To my father? Back in then, there was, they would have a lot of log timber on the places, and they would cut the timber and take 'em to the river and float 'em down the river to Bogalusa, down to the big mills where they had the big mills down there. Then they carry 'em down there and sell 'em, you know, that=s the way they would get their money, you know. (clock chimes) For Christmas and all like that. So he taked pneumonia and died from that exposure. Maxwell: He was doing that at Christmastime? Williams: Doin' that through the wintertime, you know, before Christmas. And so my mother married another man, and he was a preacher, and they had two children. They lived together 'til I guess I was about nine or ten years old, and he passed away, and he died. And then she bummed around there, stayed, sang around there for a long time. She eventually married another man by the name of Louis Peters [phonetic spelling]. And they didn't stay together too long. They separated, and then I was probably gettin' on up in pretty good size then, on up in age about eighteen or nineteen years old. And then I just went to workin' around different places and different folks. And I worked and taked care of herBher and the rest of the childrenBuntil I got twenty years old. And then I married, and then she married and got her another husband. Maxwell: What was her name? Williams: Her name was Eliza. Her last husband was SmithBEliza Smith. Maxwell: And so you decided to leave when you got married, huh? Williams: Yes. After I got married, well, I commenced to goin' around from different places, from place to place, workin', me and my wife. Then my first wife, we separated in Louisiana, and I come up to Mississippi, to Jackson, to Carthage, Mississippi. And I stayed there about ten, eleven years. Stayed there 'til I went in service. I went in service there, and went overseas and stayed overseas 'til the war ended. When the war ended.... Maxwell: What branch of the service were you in? Williams: In the Navy. Maxwell: What did you do? Williams: I was on a destroyer. You know, them destroyers, they went in and hitCthey invade them places, you know, and landed them troops on them different places, well, the destroyer would go around and go ahead of them invasions, and make a way for the soldiers. Maxwell: Oh, so you bomb the shores and stuff? Williams: Yes, bombed them beaches. And them big destroyers, well, they would go around ahead of them big battleships is what I'm tryin' to say. Go ahead of them battleships and make a way for them. And then them battleships, when they be landin' them soldiers, them battleships would be way back out about ten or fifteen miles back out in the ocean, and they'd be shootin' over these other ships and things, when they be landin' them soldiers on the beaches. Maxwell: What did you do on the destroyer? Williams: I worked in the kitchen for the officers, you know, prepared their meals and stuff. I help in the kitchen around and prepared the meals for the officers, and served them, when they're gettin' ready to eat, we=d go around and served them, and cleaned up their rooms where they sleep at, make up they beds and sweep up the rooms. Maxwell: What was it like doing that? Williams:
Just like housekeeping here. (laughter) When we'd be in a battle, we'd
be down under them big guns, handed them ammunition. When we'd leave from
that ammunition, we'd come out of them battles, you know, we'd get back
up on top of the ship and around and doin' our duty, workin' around in
the kitchen, fixin' the meals for them officers. Them officers, they be
around up on top deck spyin' around for the enemies. (pause) Williams: So from then on I wasn't able to work no more, so I went to the doctors and hospitals and things around here for I don't know how many yearsBfour or five yearsBback up out to the hospitals. EventuallyBwell, I went to the doctors here for two or three years and they sent me to Phoenix. And I started goin' to the doctor every two weeks down there to Phoenix. And so they tried to send me back to work, give me a strip to go back to work, light duty. I take this strip and tear it up >cause I knowed my condition, I knowed I wasn't able to work no more. So I never would. And they tried to give me different jobs. I wouldn't take nothin'. So I just went on to the government hospital down there, stayed down there for three or four years. Maxwell: In the hospital? Williams: In the hospital down there, until they told us they was givin' me a settlement, the company did here, whilst I was in the hospital down there, and they never paid me no money, they just paid all my hospital bills and doctor bills. And so, well, then, when I got discharged from the Army, I got a (pause) service-connected disability, 'cause I had got sick, plus I was in the hospital and had to go to the hospital. I got down with my back, you know, my back give me trouble. Got down with my back, and I went to the hospital whilst I was overseas. I got out with a service-connected disability well then I... But they called themselves give me a settlement from the company here, well, they didn't pay me no money, so I just stayed in the hospital down there at [Whipple?], until I got my pension raised to a total disability. Maxwell:
From the Southwestern Company? Maxwell: Does it still give you pay? Williams: Oh yeah, I still be bothered with my back, you know. Maxwell: Well, what kind of work did you do when you were in Columbia, when you said you worked for different people? Williams: Oh, around on the farm, that was out there in the country around on them farms. I'd go down and plow for different people when I was around helpin= my mother, takin= care of them kids. There come a public job down there, had a big mill down there at Columbia. And I went out there up on that logging camp, and I worked around out there on the section and ridin' mules on the skidder, and different jobs around there, and workin' around there. And back then, it paid off on in envelopes, paid off money in them envelopes. So every payday, when I'd get them envelope, I wouldn't tear it open 'til I got it and I=d take and go give it to Mama, and she would tear it open and give me two or three dollars out of it and put it in my pocket. Most of the time I wouldn't take over a dollar, fifty cents, somethin' like that, and I give it to her to raise the other children with. That's the way I do, work from place to place, around on different jobs and things like that around. She moved and went to Lumberton, and I went out there and went to work in the big mill out there. And that's where I worked in that mill 'til I got married. Maxwell: What kind of work did you do in the mill there? Williams: Feedin' the machine. Run that lumber through the machine, you know, and plane it, make it smooth. Maxwell: Did the other children work, too, or just you? Williams: No, just me. She had four children, two girls and two boys. Well, the boy, he was a baby boy. He was small, he wasn't big enough to work. But when he did get big enough to work, he worked around on.... It was a big pecan farm up there, close to Lumberton, and he went out there on that pecan farm and helped 'em set out trees and stuff like that on that farm. Maxwell: What made you decide to go to Carthage when you got married? Maxwell: So that's where you learned to do that, huh? Williams: Yeah. When I came out here, I knowed how to cut logs, 'cause I had learned back there. Maxwell: How'd you decide to come to Flagstaff? Williams: Well, when I went in service, I went to (inaudible), Maryland, and taked my boot training. That's where they sent me, to (inaudible), Maryland, to take my boot training. When they put us, we took our boot training, they put us on a troop train, and that troop train went way around up through Chicago and through Washington around, and come back around and come through Winslow and come through here, and it stopped in Winslow and it stopped here. When they stopped here, I went to the window and looked out down across the street down here, and I said if I ever lived to get out of service, I was comin' back here. And so when I got out of service, I went to Carthage where I was discharged, back to Carthage. Well, that spring, I came out here and got a job cuttin' logs, and I've been right here ever since. (laughs) Maxwell: What was it you saw that you liked, or what made you want to come back here to live? Williams: Well, you see, back there we hadn't been makin' no big money. And whilst I was overseas, it was a man that was workin' back there, he had come out here, and he'd write me letters whilst I was overseas, tellin' me about the hundred dollars that he was makin' here, and I couldn't stand that. I said if I got out, I had done said that when I come through here. After I got out, I said I had to go out there and make some of that big money. So that's what I done. I came out here and went right on makin' that big money. Maxwell: Did you make it? Williams: I sure did! Williams: Oh, plenty days we'd go out there and make a hundred dollars a day. Maxwell: Wow! This is in '44, too? Williams: Yeah, >44. Maxwell: That was a lot of money then, wasn=t it? Williams: Yeah. Yeah, that was some big money there. Back down in Mississippi, when I left down there, sure we didn=t make that fifty, sixty, and seventy dollars on the half, you know. Maxwell: "On the half"? Williams: On the whole half. You know, you paid off every two weeks, and every week.... It was hard work. You could never make a hundred dollars a day. You make that five and six dollars a day, that was big money back there. Maxwell: Boy! and you could make a hundred here?! Williams: Yeah. Come out here and we=d hit that big timber out there. Sure, easy to make a hundred dollars a day. Maxwell: Did they pay you by the hour, or by how much wood you cut? Williams: They pay us so much a thousand. Paid $1.90 a thousand. Maxwell: A thousand...? Williams: A thousand feet. Maxwell: Feet of lumber? Williams: Yeah, a thousand feet of lumber. Maxwell: So they measure the trees you cut? Williams: After we cut the logs down, then they had a scale, you'd go around and scale 'em, you know. Williams: Scale them logs, you know. Maxwell: How'd you pick out which trees to cut down? Williams: The Forest Service goes through and mark the trees for ya' to cut. Maxwell: But then sayBdoes everybody sort of go look for the big trees to cut? Williams: Yeah. The Forest Service, be done marked. They'd be all kind of big trees there, if they don't mark 'em, you don't cut 'em. Maxwell: But I mean, say they've got ten trees marked, and there's eight guys goin' out to cut.... Williams: Oh, when the log sawyers, there'd be so many log sawyers in a crew, and they strip the timber up. You know, go through and strip it off. Maxwell: The branches? Williams: Yeah. Just like go through the woods and take your axe and glaze off a line down through the timber here, and blaze off a line over there, and you get inside this line and cut the timber inside that line there that's marked. And the Forest Service, they go through there and take some paint and put on all the trees that you can cut. Maxwell: Did you only get paid for the particular trees you cut, or did the whole crew split it? Williams: No. You get paid for what timber you cut, and I get paid for what timber I cut. They used to have them crosscut saws where two men pull a saw and cut it down to (inaudible) and one man to the saw, you see. You see, and one man get everything what he cut. That's a hard way to make a hundred dollars. Just two men pullin' them crosscut saws, you couldn't hardly do that, couldn't make that much money. Maxwell: Why? Because it took longer to cut it? Williams: Yeah. You know, you can't get out there and pull that saw like you can crank that saw up and that there motor pull that saw faster than you can pull the gas down on it and you just wide open on it, go right on down through that log, just cut it so fast. Williams: Well, that came about after I come in. I don't know just how many. It wasn't many years after I came here, before they brought them power saws out, started usin' them power saws. Maxwell: Did you have to have your own power saw? Williams: Yeah, you had to buy your own power saw. Maxwell: So it was your personal. Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Huh. What about when they had those two-man saws? Williams: Oh, the crosscut saw? Well, they furnished them themselves. Maxwell: But not the power saw, huh? Williams: But not the power saw. Maxwell: Huh. Well, tell me, when you were back in Carthage, when you got discharged, how did you get out here? Was it hard to get out here? Williams: No, you catch the train. We caught the train, catch the train and went to Memphis. I believe it was Memphis. And then changed trains and come out to... I can't think of the name of the place now up there. Come over there and changed trains again and caught the train that came to here. Maxwell: Did you have the money to do it and all that? Williams: Oh, yeah. When I got discharged out of service, they paid you so much. They give you a hundred dollars when they discharged you. And then every month, the first of every month, they'd send you another hundred dollars. They send you two more hundred dollars after the first hundred dollars. They give you $300 when they discharged you, but they don't give it all to you at one time. Give you $100 when they discharged you. You go into the depot and get you a ticket to back home. They tells you to don't cash your checks, no more than just to get you a ticket home because there were so many people layin' around there, robbin' the people when they get discharged and get their money. Williams: Uh-huh, treat 'em alike. Maxwell: Did they?! Williams: Give 'em all the same thing. Maxwell: How did you feel treated in the Navy? Williams: Oh, I was treated nice, niceBreal nice. After I got sick over there and went to the hospital, I never did have to work no moreBI just laid around on the ship. Never did get ready to go in them battles, they'd take me off the ship and put me over there, leave me here where they leave from, on another big ship, until they go on that invasion and come back. Then they'd go over there and pick me up and bring me back and put me on their ship. Maxwell: What happened to you? What was it that made you sick on the ship? Williams: I got sick with my back, my back give me trouble then. Maxwell: Did that heal up eventually? Williams: Yeah, after so long a time, it got to where it don't bother me much now. I went to the doctor so much with it, and they give me shots and different stuff, medicine, so it don't bother me much now. But every once in a while, if I get out and do any kind of work like that, it'll bother me. Maxwell: So that was a different place from where the truck hit you? Williams: Yes, that was some of the same place where I got mashed up. Maxwell: So you and your wife separated in Carthage? Nita? Williams: No. Nita, we separated in Louisiana, and I left Louisiana after we separated, and I run into another lady, Emily, and we come to Carthage and we left Carthage and come here together. And here=s where she passed away, at here. Maxwell: Were you married to Emily? Maxwell: How long were you married? Williams: Well, when I went in service, we wasn't married. We had called ourselves married, but.... Maxwell: Let's stop this just a minute. [END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B] Maxwell: Now, you were saying, when you and Emily were first together.... Williams: We first went to Carthage, we married there, but I hadn't gotten my divorce from Nita in Louisiana. Well, when they called me in service, I went in the service, I told 'em that I had quit Nita, we had separated, but they told us, "That's still your wife, you haven't got your divorce. That's still your wife." But after I went to take my boot training, then I come back to Carthage and I got me a lawyer and put in for my divorce then. Then when I got overseas, my divorce went through, and they sent it to me and I signed it. And when I got back to Carthage, I wanted to marry Emily then, but looked around, and she hadn't gotten her divorce from her husband. Well, we came on out here and carried her back down to Louisiana, and she got her divorce from her husband, and then we came back out here and married out here. And we stayed together, let's see, fifty-something years. She passed away here a few years ago. Maxwell: Is one of these pictures of Emily? Williams: That's her yonder, me and her. Maxwell: Could I get the picture and put it in front of the camera? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Would you like that on there? Or do you want to get it? Or I'll get up and get it if you like. (pause) Do you want us to bring the camera over? Maybe it's easier if we bring the camera over. [Becca] will turn the camera around, Mr. Williams. Yeah, she'll zoom in on it. When was that picture taken? Williams: Let's see, that picture was taken after we was here, I don't know, >bout I imagine about eight or ten years after we was here. Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Can you get it? Camerawoman: Yeah, oh yeah. Maxwell: Great, okay, here we go. It just seems like it'd be nice to include her in the history. So how many children did the two of you have? Williams: Me and her had two. Maxwell: Did you and Nita have any children? Williams: We had three. Maxwell: So you had five all together? Williams: Yeah. Nita had three children, two boys and a girl. And the two boys are still living. The oldest one is in Los Angeles. That's him with that there Navy suit on. Maxwell: (clock chimes, obscuring comment) So he went in the Navy, too, huh? Williams: (clock chimes, obscuring comment) The younger one, he's still in New Orleans, the younger one. And the girl, she passed away. She had three children. Maxwell: So your daughter is Mrs. Lloyd, right? One of your daughters with Emily? Williams: Eloise. Maxwell: Eloise. Is that her on the bottom? Williams: No. Eloise ain't up there. Do you know where Eloise stay around? Maxwell: Yeah, I know her. I know your grandson, too. So what did Emily think of Flagstaff? Williams: Oh, she liked Flagstaff. Yes, really did. And after Emily passed, well, I married again, that=s our picture here. Williams: Her name was Ozie, O-Z-I-E. Ozie W. Williams. Maxwell: Was she someone who'd grown up in Flagstaff? Had she been here long? Williams: She lived in Washington, in Tacoma, Washington. She passed away about three or fourB>bout four years ago now. And so I've been here by myself ever since. Maxwell: How did you meet her? She was in Washington? Williams: She had some brothers stayed here, and she came from up there to visit with them, and that way she got in touch. Her younger brother, me and him were good friends, you know. We'd be to church every Sunday and together. And so when her husband passed away and she came down here, he put her onto me, and so we got started from him. He made us acquainted and so we eventually got together and married. I'd go up there and stay with her a couple of months, and she'd come down here and stay with me a couple of months, backwards and forwards, you know, like that. She eventually got sick, and I'd carry her to the doctor here. I carried her to a doctor here and I carried her to a doctor in Cottonwood. I carried her to her doctor in Tucson. And then she came from Tucson and sent her back to Washington. And she went from there to Mayo to that place up there to a doctor. I just carried her to a doctor all the time, up there in Washington, where she lived up there. Every week she was goin' to a different doctor up there, but couldn't none of 'em save her. Maxwell: At least you tried. Williams: Yes. Maxwell: Well, what was Flagstaff like when you moved here? Williams: Oh, it wasn't nothin' out here. I bought this lot here, and I cut down pine trees all when I built. I bought this lot and built this house myself, and I cut down pine trees and stuff all along this (points)Bbig old rocks up here. I had to get a big old caterpillar to push them rocks offa here so I could build. (laughter) Wasn't no road goin' through to here then. Maxwell: No Lone Tree? Maxwell: Lone Tree? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Oh, okay. Williams: That little white house there. The street come from there to right out there, and turned and went out to the mill there. That was the only way to get to the mill out through there. And they had woods up in here. Maxwell: All around here was woods? All around the south side? Williams: Uh-huh, all down through here. Well, that street down there, there was houses on that street down there. Maxwell: Oh, on Agassiz? Williams: O'Leary over here. (points) Maxwell: And that was it? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: Wow. So who'd you buy the land from? Williams: George Babbitt. All of this here belonged to Babbitts then. Maxwell: What kind of deal did he make you on it? Williams: I paid $750 for this lot. Maxwell: Wow! that's a lot. Williams: Well, that's what they were sellin' for then, but they have went up terrible since then. That was cheap along in then. Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: He made you a good deal, then? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: I didn't realize land cost that much back then. Williams: Well, some places, you know, it wasn't that high, but here... That mill would cause a little business going on here so that's what made the land still get high around here. And out to East Flag, they had just started. These Mexicans and things were movin' out there, you know, buildin' up that place out there. Sure. It wasn't nothin' around hereBjust one or two houses. And ButlerBthere wasn't no Butler through here. That was just a little old pathway where the folks walked down through there and went to the mill out there. And 'Dobe Quarters over there, they had a railroad that come through there and went out to the mill. Over there across the track over there, we called it 'Dobe Quarters. There was a few houses down there. And them houses down there on that street that went over there in 'Dobe Quarters, and back there uptown. Maxwell: Where was 'Dobe Quarters? What was itBhouses? Williams: Yeah, just some little ol= flat-top houses down there. There was one big house thereBit's still thereBa big two-story building. And the rest of 'em was little old shacks around there. Maxwell: What kind of people lived there? Williams: Mostly Mexican people. Maxwell: Were they people who worked in the mill? Williams: Yeah, people that worked in the mill, Mexican and Indians. There's a lot of Indians stayin= out in these. People were stayin' inBI call 'em little old chicken coops, any little thing. And that woman right over there, she gots some little coops and things built around on her place over there, and people stayin' in 'em. Maxwell: Huh! Maxwell: Why'd they stay in houses like that? Williams: I don't know, but them Indians, they would stay in anything like thatBany little ol' chicken coop out there. Over there where that church is over there, there was a big house over there, just the other side of that church. I lived in that big house. I was living in that big house when I bought this lot over here. But I thought that lots over there where the church is, and that ButlerBI thought all of them was lots too. And I was stayin' out there, and I wanted to buy me a lot out there in that pretty level place out there, and build me a house on it. And so that's the reason why I bought this lot here. When it come up for sale, the other fellah who was my partner around here, he found out that lots come up for sale, and he run back here and told me that they was for sale, and he had done went up there and got that number one lot, right over the other side of them bricksBupside there. Maxwell: Not Mr. Jackson? Williams: No, he was Curtis Johnson. Maxwell: Curtis Johnson. Oh, I've heard of him. He was your partner, huh? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: And he bought that lot? Williams: Yeah, he bought that lot. And he stayed on it a while. I don't know how many years he stayed on that lot there. He left here and went to Phoenix, and that's where he died at. He died down in Phoenix. Maxwell: So he bought the flat lot you wanted? Williams: Yeah, he bought that lot there, and me and him built the same time. He was buildin' his house and I was buildin' mine. And my other friend, J. W. down there, he was buildin' his. And over on Vasquez, he bought the next lot, next to me, and he was over there building over there, too. Maxwell: Did you build it yourself? Maxwell: What was it like to go out and saw trees all day and then come home and work on the house? (laughter) Williams: It took work! It took work! And then, on top of that, them old rocks and things, I'd get out there and dig up rocks and pile 'em up over there on the side, and dig up rocks. And then it really snowed bad long in then. The snow be up there neck deep, nearly. And we got there and roll them rocks up, and then when you get there and walk and yard out there, it'd be so foggy and nasty out there, and boggy. Then I'd get out, take my truckBI got to where I got me a truckBand I would haul men back and forwards to work every day, and on Saturday I'd take and haul cinders. I'd haul cinders in here and put around in the yard, all up and down the driveway. Maxwell: It makes a big difference. Williams: I done that for two, three yearsBhaulin' cinders every weekend, Saturdays and Sundays, haulin' cinders. All upside the peak, I=d haul that there white sand and stuff from up in there, put out there in the yard. Oh, boy, I did some work around this place here. Maxwell: Well, it shows. It=s lasted. Williams: Yeah. Williams: Ooo! And that's another thing. Got to where I let my stepson build him a house back there, so he got to where he was so lazy around here, wouldn't help me dig snow in the wintertimeBI'd be diggin' snow out there and he had him a little truck, and he wouldn't even dig the snow out to drive his truck up in the yard there. He'd get out there and paw and dig until he'd get his truck out and go up to the saloon up there and get him a bottle of whiskey and come back and get him a crowd and sit up in there and drink whiskey and go on, and I'd be out there diggin' snow all day long. P'shaw! If it hadn't of been for his mother, well, long time ago I'd have had him move out from back here. But only on account of her, she got to where she was sickly and had heart trouble, so I let him stay on there until she passed away. When she passed away, boy, I made him move out from back there. He just wouldn't help do nothin' around here. And then he wasn't man enough to help pay no taxes or nothin'Binsurance or nothin'. So he moved out. But he was lucky, though. When I made him move, got down there, where he's at now, there was a A.D. A.D. was leavin= from here. He had met a woman from New Orleans. So he was leavin' here. So he got Daniel to stay there in his house there, and rented the house to Daniel. And he left from here and ain't been back here since. And so he mortgaged the place before he left, and the man that did mortgage it for him. But Daniel was payin= A.D. the money for rent a while. And so the man stopped Daniel, and started Daniel to payin' him the money, and then he told Daniel he could buy the place. And so Daniel is buyin' the place now. Maxwell: He was lucky! Williams: Uh-huh, yeah, that was just a lucky hit he made. Maxwell: Well, what was the community like when you first came here back in '44? How many African American families were there? Williams: There wasn't many. Wasn't over eight or ten families here. There wasn't very many. Maxwell: About how many people would you say that'd be, in those eight or ten families? Williams: Oh, I'm scared to say. I guess children and all, it may have been about thirty or forty. Maxwell: That's very smallBvery small. Maxwell: Did you have a sense of being a community? Williams: Hm. Unt-uh. No. Wasn't too many people here out here. Maybe fifteen or twenty. Maybe between fifteen or twenty families, maybe. But after we got here, I know they just kept a-addin'-in here, kept a-comin' in, kept a-comin' in. Now it's quite a few of 'em here now. Maxwell: Which families were here before you, do you remember? [All following names spelled phonetically] Williams: Well, they all dead and gone now. Let's see, there was Clyde Joe and... I can't think of the names of all of 'em. Maxwell: Would that be Nathan Joe's grandfather? Williams: Yeah, Nathan Joe's grandfather. Maxwell: Were the Hickmans here? Williams: Yeah, the Hickmans. Old ManBno, it wasn=t Hickman. The Hickmans was here all right enough, but Hickman, he had been in service just like me. He just came here just a few days ahead of me. Maxwell: Oh, really?! Williams: Hickman did, yeah. And his daddy-in-law was here, Old Man.... There was Sandy Smith and Son Smith was here. They was foremans out on the job out here. Maxwell: Oh, really? Williams: They was in.... Old Man Allen. Allen Austin. That's Ms. Hickman's daddy. Maxwell: How about the Locketts? Were they here? Williams: Unt-uh. They wasn't here. Williams: Yeah...no, they came here after we was here. I was stayin' in that big house down there when Flemons came here. (pause) I can't think of all the names of 'em, but it was about thirty or forty families here, I guess, on this side and across over yonder. Maxwell: Eight or ten families? Or thirty or forty families? Williams: I'd say about thirty or forty families, maybe. Maybe that many, scattered around. Maxwell: Where would they have been living? Whereabouts in town? Williams: Well, there was one, Miss Polk, and her husband was stayin' across the track over there, across the other side of town over there, Miss Polk. And another old man. Maxwell: We're going to need to stop this tape real quick. [END TAPE 1, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A] Maxwell: When you say thirty or forty families, are you thinking of parents and their children and so forth? Like were there thirty or forty family names? Or just eight or ten names, and then thirty or forty families with those eight or ten names? Williams: Thirty or forty families...with...I say about thirty or forty names, families, different ones. I say about thirty or forty different families. Yeah, there was about that many. Most of 'em was old folks, you know, settin' around in different places. Maxwell: Had they been here a long time? Williams: I guess they had. Far as I know, they had. Maxwell: Do you know what brought them here? Williams: No, I sure don't. I sure don't know. Maxwell: Had they been working in the sawmill? Williams: Some of 'em had, and some of 'em hadn't. Williams: I guess so. There was an old manBmost all of 'em was old folks, and they had young children and things here, but they were grown. That's the reason why I say there was about thirty or forty families. Thinkin' about it, there was lots more of the old folks sittin' around in different places. There was some all around up Old Town and all over yonder, back over yonder across the tracks over there. Maxwell: In Old Town? Williams: Old Town over in there. All upside that hill up there. And then there was a few back down in here... There wasn't too many back down in here. Maxwell: On the south side? Williams: On the south side. Maxwell: How about on the Sunnyside? Were any of 'em in Sunnyside? Williams: Wasn't no colored folks out there. Mostly Mexicans and white folks out in there. Maxwell: When did there start to be [African American] folks out in Sunnyside? Williams: Oh, not too long ago. After they built that there shopping center out there. I can't remember now, a colored person livin' out there but them Hickmans, after they put that shoppin' center out there. But there may have been some out there, but I can't remember. Maxwell: The only people I know about there now are Mack Jones, the Brooks, Joe's family was out there, and then the Johns, Debbie Neese and her husband. And then the Cottrells, and there used to be Carlos Mann [all phonetic spellings] out there too. And I can't think of anybody else, can you? Williams: No, I sure can't. Now, them folks, what you call 'em out there. There's a way on out there, you know, out there where the road goes down. Maxwell: Down 89? Maxwell: Is he the one where they burned his house down? Williams: I don't know, but they may have burnt his house down. I can't remember now. Maxwell: Someone told me that happened to the first [African American] family that moved out there. I didn't know if that was him, or a different one. Williams: That may have been him now, because it's been a good long while ago. Maxwell: Do you remember his name? Williams: I can't remember, but I know that they did mess with himBkept messin' with him and tellin= him they didn=t want him out there, until he went back to Winslow. Maxwell:
Let's see, don't the Priors live out there now? Is it the Priors? No,
I've got the name wrong. I'm trying to think. One son's name is Smooth,
and the other is named DarellBthey call him Rocko. I can't think. Is it
Thomas? Can't think of their last name. They live out there on the Sunnyside
too, up above Cedar. There aren't very many families out there now. I
mean even now, there aren't too many. (pause) Williams: I've been treated nice myself. I ain't had no trouble myself. Maxwell: I've heard some pretty scary stories. You know Mr. George Prior? He lives over there. He told me that there was a lynching here. Did you hear about that? Williams: A lynching here? (pause) Unt-uh. If I heard about it, I done forgot it. I can't remember now. (clock chimes) No. That's one I don't know about. I done forgot it if I ever heard about it. Williams: It should. If it ever happened, it should be in there. Maxwell: You'd think so. If notBor in maybe some kind of census records or something like that. Well, I've talked to different people who came from different parts of the country when they came here. Some of the people, when they came here, they found it was a lot better. They felt more accepted and a lot more comfortable and freer and safer. And other people said they felt like it was a lot more prejudiced here. How was that for you? Williams: Well, it is pretty bad here. It ain't like it should be here. Maxwell: Still? Williams: No, it ain't near like it should be here. Take the folks that's sneakin' with they stuff here, try to hold.... You see, you take in these here banks and stores and things, you don't see no black folks workin' in there. Used to. When I used to go to the bank right smart, you used to. You'd go up there, like this week you'll see a colored person workin' in there, the next time you go back there, you don't see him. Got to where you don't see none in there now. None a'tall. Maxwell: So like you say, it's kind of quiet. Williams: Oh, yeah, they sneakin' with they stuff. I went back down to Mississippi, the last time I was down there, went in them stores, and them black folks were around in that store, workin' just like the whites, on them machines and cash registers and things, just like thatBand waitin' on the folks in them banks, just like white and black, all mixed up there together, heap better than they did here. Maxwell: Really? Williams: Yeah. I did. Folks here is tough with that stuff. And right here, right now, you don't see no black folks on these here trucks and things around through here. Nothin' but white folks. Once in a...now more than thatBif you do see colored folk drivin' a truck, it's probably his'in. Yes, indeed, folks is tough. Williams: When I first come here I'm sure a black person couldn't hardly get a job then. When I first come here, I went out the door, I went uptown, and I saw a white man in there doing that janitor work, come out there throwin' that trash in and out them offices and things, you know. I said, "Well, look at him! That's the first time I ever seen this here." That's what we do back down yonder. We work in them stores and things. Every store you see down there had a black person workin' in there, just like them folks go there and make their groceries and things. And they had a black man workin' around in there. He carried them groceries out, just like you go in there and make groceries. He'd carry your groceries out to your house for you. All them stores down there had them black folks workin' around in there. Come out here, you didn't see that. You see them ol' white folks around in there, workin'. Maxwell: What did you think about that? Williams: Oh, that's just prejudice, that's all. Yup. One thing about it, wasn't but one thing good here. When you did manage to get you a job, you could make that money. Maxwell: Did you have a hard time getting that job? Williams: No. The folks I come out here with, they was already workin' out here. You see, long and then in the wintertime it snowed a lot here, and they didn't work in the woods in the wintertime because too much snow out there. >Cause that wintertime, in October, they had to shut them woods down, where them folks that had come out here and work, well, they went back down there in the wintertime and stayed until springtime, in AprilBthey opened up in April. Springtime they come back out here and go back to work, and work through the summer. And then when fall come, wintertime come, they leave and go back down there until, kept on until we got enough of us out here and we start to stayin' out here. I ain't never went back down there and stayed. When I come out here the first time, I've been here ever since. I stayed out here. Well, come Christmastime, I stayed a while, me and my wife and kids, we would go back down there for Christmas, you know, go back down there for Christmas. Then when Christmas stop, we come back here. Maxwell: So your friends would come out and they'd work, and then they'd go back and stay at home in Louisiana? Williams: Yeah, in the wintertime. Williams: They would most stay out to the camp. Maxwell: Oh, okay. And did their families go too? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: The families stayed at the camp? Williams: Yeah. There was some of 'em had their families out there, and some didn't. Them that didn't have their families out here, they stayed here in town. I had a truck and I hauled 'em back and forwards, out to the camp every day. Maxwell: So people were doing that in the forties, too, then, when you came? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: They'd come out and work and spend a season and go home for the wintertime? Williams: Yeah, them that didn't bring their wives out here. They'd come out here and work and go back there in the wintertime. Maxwell: But you had an easy time getting a job when you came? Williams: Sure. Maxwell: I guess I was trying to follow the story, when you came out and you saw the white people doing the janitors' work, that meant that there were fewer jobs for the black folks? Is that what you were saying? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: 'Cause even the work that they normally did down in the South, they couldn't get a job doing that here? Williams: No. Maxwell: Were there any other kinds of jobs that they could get? Maxwell: Uh-huh. Williams: Well, you see, when they leave from down there, there wasBI guess some of 'em was lookin' for anything they could get to do. Some, they come out yonder, had special jobs they're doin', just like I was a log-cutter and I was lookin' for log-cuttin' jobs. And so I didn't have no trouble gettin' no job cuttin' logs because the man I come out here to work with, we was pullin' them crosscut saws then. Well, he was already workin' out here, and so he brought me out here to work with him, you see, and I didn't have no trouble gettin' a job. Maxwell: So you pulled a crosscut saw with him? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: You were his partner? Williams: Yes. Maxwell: Was that Mr. Curtis? Williams: No, his name was Peanut. Maxwell: Not Peanut Joyce? Williams: No. Maxwell: A different one? Williams: Yeah. This was another old guy. Maxwell: That's tough to come to a place where there aren't a lot of jobs. Were there churches when you came? Williams: There was oneBthis here (points) church right there. Maxwell: What's the name of that one? Williams: It was over there in town over there. Williams: Yeah, First Baptist Church. It was over there in town. You know where Babbitts' Garage is there? Maxwell: Oh, yeah. Williams: Where that filling station is down at Babbitt's. Right there where that church was, right there on that corner there. So after the thing got to buildin' up around there, they sold that lot there and moved that church over here, and bought that lot there and put it there. Maxwell: Oh. Why'd they move? Williams: Well, they just wanted to move it from out of town over there. Babbitt wanted that there spot where he could put his garage and filling station and stuff in there. So they sold it to him, and they found that good spot right there, and bought that spot right there and moved the church over there. Maxwell: That's a nice spot. Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Did they ever have any trouble with people harassing the church? Williams: Yeah, one time. They had something. Some of the folks went in there and stole some of the mics [microphones] and stuff out of there. That's the onliest trouble that they ever had. And then some of theBthey had little ol' gangs or somethin' that went around there once or twice and writin' all that old stuff on the side of the church and on the sides of the streets out there on that there cement wall up there. You can see them spots where them police and things come and painted over that stuff. Maxwell: That's fairly recently? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: I guess I'm wondering how the community developed, how there came to be a sense of community, with people knowing each other and helping each other, and having churches and organizations and all that kind of thing. When did that start happening? Maxwell: Tharp Homes? There by the baseball field and all that? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Yeah, Tharp Homes. Williams: Yeah, Clark Homes. Maxwell: Clark Homes? Clark? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Oh, okay. Williams: Up there. Yes building. From that, they just started building up these different parts out there. And then they went out to Sunnyside and started buildin' all of them houses and things up in there. And the folks comin', movin' in >em as fast as they could build 'em. That=s what started buildin' up the place then. Yeah, they built them houses and built all up and down Cedar over there. All that big settlement over there. Then come on back around, built that big shopping center over there. The folks is comin' to move in there, this stuff out of town, out there in that shopping center. All of them built furniture stores and things. All that started gettin' out of town there. (phone rings, tape turned off and on) Maxwell: Did you or either of your wives belong to the church here? Williams: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we been goin= to that church over there for years. Maxwell: It started before you came? Williams:
Yeah. Maxwell: When did you join or start? Williams: Well, I was here for many years before I joined this church. I was here I reckon about ten or twelve years before I joined that church out there. Maxwell: Why'd you decide to join it? Williams: Well, I had been a church member for a long time, but after I moved out here, I just hadn't, you know.... Well, for one thing I was runnin' around doin' first one thing and another, tryin' to get over some money, get a start, before I ever decided to go back to the church. After I got kind of situated, settled down pretty good, why then I decided to go on back to the church, start to workin' in the church. Maxwell: What year was it you built your house? Williams: Oh.... I can't think now. Maxwell: Was it before you joined the church? Williams: Yes. Yes, I built the house way before I joined the church. Then after I built my house, well then I had learned how to cut hair. I put me in a barber shop up there, on the street. And that's where I got my pull-up from. When I come in from work, and every Saturday and Sunday, pretty nearBI wouldn't cut hair much on Sundays, just sometime I would have a few heads that I didn't get a chance to get on a Saturday. Well, I go back there Sunday morning and cut a few heads. That's where I made my money at. I had a truck, hauling men. I let the truck take care of itself, and the barber shop takin' care of me, and the money I worked for, I give it to my wife for her to pay the bills and pay the house note, take care of the children. Maxwell: You kept busy! Williams: Yeah, I was busy, I was busy. Maxwell: Where did you get the house note from? Williams: I cut logs and I give that to my wife. Maxwell: Well, I mean from the bank, or from a person? Maxwell: Could [African American] folks get credit to buy a house with a mortgage? Williams: Yes, you could get it. You could get credit... You didn't have to get no mortgage. George Babbitt would let you have the land, just pay a hundred dollars down on it and pay so much every payday. And he'd do that, give you a chance to build on it. Maxwell: So he did that directly to you? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: You didn't go through a bank? Williams: No, don't have to go through no bank or nothin', just go right to him, and he just fixed up the paper and everything. Every payday you go in there and pay him. Didn't have to go to no bank to get no loan or nothin'. Maxwell: That's nice. Williams: Yeah, that was real nice. That was best the thing I could hear tell of >cause I didn't have no credit here or nothin=. But after we got the house built, well then we had to go uptown, you know, which we had done that when we were livin' in that house over thereBgo uptown to them there furniture store. You know, we had to get credit there to get the furniture and stuff to put in the house. [END TAPE 2, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B] Maxwell: Was it hard to get credit for the furniture and all? Maxwell: Lora Chapman? Williams: Lloyd Chapman and Sally V. Maxwell: Oh, Lloyd Chapman. That was Sally V.'s husband? Williams: Uh-huh, that was Sally V.'s husband. So they made the way for us. Maxwell: Oh, interesting! Williams: (chuckles) Yeah. Maxwell: So they stood for you? Williams: Yeah, they stood for us. Maxwell: If you had wanted to go to a bank and get a mortgage, did you know of any other [African American] folks that were able to go to the bank and get a mortgage to pay for their house? Williams: Unt-uh! Unt-uh, I don't know. 'Cause back then.... (tape turned off and on) Maxwell: If a [African American] family could get a mortgage back then if they needed to... Williams: It was hard. But I know Marshall Reed [phonetic spelling] was here, and heBit wasn't the banks. At first, there was no banks here but this one. It was one place up there, you could go in there, so Marshall Reed carried me in there, and they was from Winslow, but they would let you have money. But it was hard, it was hard. Maxwell: What made it hard? Williams: There wasn't no banks and things here like there is now, 'cept there was one place up there. You know where that little shoe store is there? What's it called? That Shoe Hospital? Up there on.... Right behind the police station there. Williams: It was a place in there called...First National Bank? I think it was the First National Bank in there. Folks come from Winslow and you had to go downstairs and go in a little office in there. After that, they built a bank then out on the front. I was lookin' at it the other day, the bank over there across from the First Interstate Bank over there. Now, they got to where they would let you have money, you know. The biggest thing that was here then, there was places up and down the street there where they couldBcalled Family FinanceBfinance people where you could go in there and borrow $300 or $400 like that, you knowBthem there finance places. There was no banks, just them little offices in there where you could go in there and they'd let you have money. That=s the kind of places that they had there then. Maxwell: Were they any good? Williams: Yeah, they'd let you have $300 or $400, and you'd pay 'em so much every payday. They was a good help out. It ain't like a bank, you know, you can go in there and get as much money as you want, and then pay what you want to pay on it. Maxwell: Do they charge a lot of interest at those places? Williams: Yeah, they were chargin' pretty good interest on it. Maxwell: Tell me about your first day when you first stepped off the train in Flagstaff. Were you with Emily? Williams: Oh, I didn't bring her out here right then. Maxwell: Tell me what it was like the very first day. Williams: Oh, the first day I stepped off the train? Well, we got off the train here and it was one evenin'. The train got in here one evenin' a little before sundown, and we went on around here to Lloyd Chapman's house. He give us boardin' place there, and we went to (clock chimes, obscuring comment) and got a room, and so we boarded there with him until... Maxwell: Let's wait just a second 'til that stops dingin'. We'll lose your words. Okay, so you went to Lloyd Chapman's house? Williams: Well, we boarded there with him, and he helped us to get a place to stay and everything. Williams: Yeah, we boarded there, and then when we got to where we could get us a house or somethin', then I sent and get my wife and children. Maxwell: So you boarded with the Chapmans in their house? Williams: Yeah, in their house. They had a big house down hereByou know over here where they built them there apartments over here on the right? Where the Sanctified Church is? Right on up on that corner there. Maxwell: On Franklin there? Williams: Yeah. It was a big house there. Lloyd Chapman stayed in it, and that's where we boarded there with him, me and them other fellahs that came out here with me. We boarded there with him. He moved from there down there in 'Dobe Quarters. We moved down there with him and we boarded there with him until we started to livin' up here. Maxwell: So Mr. Chapman moved his boarding house down to 'Dobe Quarters? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: Who were the people you came with? Williams: Walter White and Son Stuart [phonetic spelling], and a fellah called Peanut. That's the one I sawed logs withBPeanut. So we all four of us come out here together. Maxwell: Do you remember Peanut's last name? Williams: His name was Nathan Newton [phonetic spelling]. Maxwell: Nathan Newton? Williams: Uh-huh, Nathan Newton. Maxwell: Had they all been out here before? Or were there any first timers? Maxwell: Did Miss Sally V. do the cooking? Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Did anybody else help out, you know like workers or... Williams: No. Maxwell: For cleaning up and...? Williams: Her and her daughter, nobody but her and her daughter, Corrine. Maxwell: Corrine, yeah. I heard she was quite a wonderful person. Williams: Oh, she was real nice. Maxwell: She passed on real young, didn't she? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: What did you think of it when you stepped off the train? How'd you feel? Williams: Oh, I felt good, felt real good. It was real nice here then. Wasn't no pavement and blacktop around through here then and up all uptown there wasn=t. When it come a rain, boy, it was a mess! Sidewalks. They had sidewalks up through town, but all down through here, wasn't nothin' but mud. Maxwell: Did you have sidewalks on the south side? Williams: Yeah, they had sidewalks down there. But in the streets, wasn't no pavement, blacktopBnothin'. Maxwell: Were the sidewalks wood or cement? Williams: Oh, they was cement, just like they is now. Maxwell: What did you see when you stepped off? Maxwell: Was it busy at night then? Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: What did people do for fun in the evening? Williams: On Sunday evening? Maxwell: Uh-huh. Williams: I don=t know wasn=t nothin= but up there around the saloon up there, around up there. Maxwell: Did you go up there? Williams: Along in then I did, sure. Yeah, I went up there, clean 'til I put up my barbershop up there. Kept on 'til they got a Elk Club started in here. And so the Elks moved the building down here on this street down here, you know where you leave from 'Frisco up there and come down to the corner and they got some apartments over there. Maxwell: Is it Phoenix? Williams: Yeah, over there on Phoenix. That there big, big building just this side of them apartments, that's where the Elk Club was. Maxwell: Oh, really? Williams: So right this side of that Elk Club is where I had my barber shop. And sure enough, I made my money in there cuttin' hair. And I run that barber shop outta there for I don't know how many years, until I got hurt. Maxwell: Really?! So twenty years?! Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell:
That's a long time. Maxwell: What was the El Rancho Grande like back then? Williams: Oh! El Rancho Grande, that was the onliest place where the folks had to go at on the weekend. It would be crowded. Plenty folks around there. Along when I first came here, well, you see, the Indians wasn't allowed to go in them saloons, you know, and they didn't want them to have nothin' to drink or nothin'. So that's what a lot of them folks would do, they'd get up there on them streets and sell them Indians whiskey. They'd go in there and get them whiskey and wine and stuff and get out there and Bill Epperson [phonetic spelling] was the chief of police here then, and boy he'd set up there on them streets and catch them folks and put 'em in jail. (laughter) Oh, boy! Them Indians kept plenty of folks livin= round through here. Some >em folks didn't do nothin' but slip around there and sell them Indians whiskey. Some of 'em would take the Indians' money and go off and wouldn't come back and give 'em no whiskey. Boy, they'd just do them Indians so bad. Maxwell: Did they get hurt for it? Did the Indians ever hurt 'em for it? Williams: No. They didn't never. Maxwell: Was El Rancho Grande a place where women could go, too? Williams: Uh-huh, yes, women, anybody could go to El Rancho GrandeBanybody but the Indians. Until when they decided to let the Indians go in there and get their own whiskey and stuff, well then they put the folks to workBput a lot of 'em to work. Maxwell: (laughs) Oh, the ones who were slippin' around selling whiskey? (laughter) Williams: Yeah. Maxwell: Would you take a family into El Rancho Grande at that time? Williams: Sure, you could take your family in there. But your children, they didn't want no little children in there, around that whiskey. Maxwell: Was it a nice place to go? Williams: Oh, yeah, it was nice. You could take your wife in there. Real nice. Williams: Uh-huh. Maxwell: It was two stories, too, wasn't it? Williams: No, it was one story, but it had a pool hall right side of it. But the pool hall floor was up high. It wasn't down low like the Rancho Grande was. You had to go up a step to go up in the pool hall. And that's where a lot of the folks was at, up there in the pool hall. They'd be up there shootin' pool and run down there and get their whiskey and stuff. It was just a busy little place round there on the corner. And then Charlie Scoto was right across the street here on another corner, on that corner over there, where he had a pool hall over there. You see? You was over there, shootin' your pool over there, settin' around, talkin' and goin' on, and runnin' over there to Rancho Grande and gettin' your drinks and stuff. It was just a busy place right there. Maxwell: Was it safe out at night, to walk around? Williams: Oh, yes, it was safe. And then they had a cafe right across the street. There's a cafe there now, right across the street, right beside the Elk Club there. Maxwell: Bonnie's little place? Williams: Yeah. Run over there and get you somethin' to eat and run right back over there, whatever. And another eatin' place right up the street there from it there, too, café. Maxwell: Sounds pretty nice. Williams: Yeah. It was real nice up there. Maxwell: Do people go down there every night of the week, or just on weekends? Williams: Yeah, they down there every night of the week. And weekendsBit was crowded up there on the weekends. Yeah, they'd be around there. Some, every day, there'd be a few around there every day. Every day. Maxwell: Kind of stayed that way 'til the end, didn't it? Williams: Yeah. Williams: Police? No, never had no trouble with no police. Maxwell: Did they treat you well? Williams: Uh-huh. They treated me nice. I had trouble a couple of times on the highway with speedin'. (laughs) Other than that, no trouble. Maxwell: Did you and your wife raise food when you first moved here? Like a garden or animals or anything? Williams: Oh, we had a garden. Yeah, after so long a time, we had a garden. Had a nice garden. Yeah, we growed some nice greens out there. I still has a garden. Yeah. Maxwell: That's a beautiful garden, too. Well, have you got any other stories you'd like to put on this tape? W |