DAVID ESTRELLA INTERVIEW

[BEGIN TAPE 1, SIDE A]

[Tr. note: All spellings are phonetic.]

Today's date is 10/30/97. The time is 4:15, and I'm conducting an oral history for Northern Arizona University, Special Collections and Archives. Today I'll be doing David Estrella.

Muñoz: What's your address, Mr. Estrella?

Estrella: My current address is 1800 North Main.

Muñoz: And your date of birth?

Estrella: July 18, 1927.

Muñoz: Who were your parents?

Estrella: My parents are Cruz Rodriguez Estrella. My mother is Delores Chavez Estrella.

Muñoz: Where were they from?

Estrella: My dad was born in El Paso in 1903. My mother was born in Chilili, New Mexico, in 1907.

Muñoz: Did they come here? When?

Estrella: My folks were coming toward Arizona when my dad was born. They had already crossed the border, and their first stop was in Cosnino. There used to be a sawmill there. My grandmother put up a little restaurant and would make sandwiches for the men - or tacos, as we call them, not sandwiches-tacos and stuff like that, for the men. They called it Bordad. So she did that until they got to Flagstaff maybe in 1904, 1905, when maybe the sawmill folded. So they come to work here. My older uncles and my grandmother I called her "mother." So it was around 1904, 1905 when they got here to Flagstaff, and they settled at - well, right there on San Francisco Street. And that's where I was born. I was born at 416 South San Francisco Street. My grandmother was a curandera, also a midwife. She used to take care of la ciudad, which is the barrio. Everybody around there, she used to take care of them if any sickness came by, midwife. I remember when I was small, she'd get me up, three or four o'clock in the morning. Somebody's having a baby, and I had to go with her, because there was snow, and she wasn't a young woman -she was quite old then. To me, she was quite old. That's what I remember.

Well, there's a lot more I remember about my grandma and myself. I remember the neighborhood that we lived in was, I guess, the happiest I've ever been in my life, because we did so much. We'd go out to the woods and we'd borrow, steal, or ________. So we'd go up there and kill some birds and eat 'em. We had a ball, all of us. There was Willie Cerra, there was so many kids around there. I can't name them all right now, but there was so many kids, and we all did the same thing: play marbles and do little things. River de Flag -it ran. I mean, water was always running there, summertime. Wintertime, it'd freeze. You would naturally skate, if you had skates. But in summertime we'd go down where the river turns up towards the sawmill, and there was a place they called the little dam. The water was clear. We'd get in there and we'd swim. It wasn't no bigger than this room here. But around the bend, they called it the big dam, and it was really huge. We used to make rafts and raft around.

Okay, other things that I remember when I was a kid, was going out and looking for water snakes and squirrels and frogs and horny toads and stuff like that. We'd take 'em over here to Teachers College, and they would buy 'em. They would buy 'em for maybe twenty-five cents a piece. They'd use 'em in the biology classes. So we made our little money. I mean, it wasn't too much -enough to buy candy. Five cents of candy was a lot of candy. You couldn't eat it. And then we'd go over to Doña Christina and get it. Doña Christina had a little store. Don Rigas Ramirez had a store. Dos Sabador Mier had a store, but Doña Christina was a little cheaper, so we'd go over there and buy our candy over there. And we asked for the pelon. You know what a pelon is?

Muñoz: That's a Mexican candy, right?

Estrella: No! Pelon is your little extra. So she always had some candy up there, it was a little harder and a little older, but she'd give us a little more of it. I remember that very well about what they used to do, the stores used to do.

We were kind of scared of going over to Mr. Mir's, because there were kind of.... But we had to go. We had to go because he had fresh meat and my grandmother or my mother would say, "Well, here's twenty-five cents, get me twenty-five cents of beef steak." I guess that's all they knew, beef steak. So I don't know what -I know they made some good food, though.

Other things that I remember. Well, I remember very, very vividly, in 1933 or '34, I'm not sure, but it rained, it rained like it rained this year. It rained a lot, it rained a lot. Okay, and all of a sudden there was a lot of water on the streets. I mean, it was a flood. What happened? River de Flag overflowed, yes, but then we found out that the dam up there of Saginaw Manistee Lumber Company had broken, and all the water had to go down -one way or another, it had to go down, so it got the easiest. So it went down and went where we lived, and some of it stayed there in La Plaza Vieja. But we got a lot of water. We had a ball! all of us. We made little boats and we were in that water all the time. This happened in the summertime, so the water wasn't cold. So that's what I mostly remember.

I remember going to church with my mom. My dad didn't go to church, but my mom did go to church, and we'd go to church -all of us would go to church. And we had Sunday school, and it was a lot of fun learning, reading. They always had a teacher there to teach us that. And then we had to go into the big church.

Muñoz: What was that church named?

Estrella: The Methodist church, right there on San Francisco Street. Then the pastor, he would give his sermon, about an hour, maybe two hours, I don't know. I thought it was about four or five hours. But then the elders, which were part of my uncles and part of the neighborhood people, everybody got up and said something. So by the time we got out of church, it's one o'clock, two o'clock in the afternoon, and some of us hadn't even had breakfast, so we were famished by the time we went home. And all my people -well, we were the nucleus of that church, because of Grandma, and I had Uncle Joe, and my Uncle Joe Rodriguez, and Arturo Vandiga, Julius Atien -and families -and we had José Mendoza, and we had Jimmy Lemoz -another uncle -and naturally my Uncle Juan Rodriguez, and Lin Rodriguez. It was a big family, so everybody had big families. The Vandigas themselves, they had seventeen kids. They only had -well, actually about nine of 'em lived. The Rodriguez had sixteen, and actually about ten of 'em lived. So you know it was a big, big family. I come from a family of ten -one of our kids died, she died in New Mexico.

Oh, I'll tell you about New Mexico. My mother and her folks came to Flagstaff during piñon season. That's around right now, in October. And they came over, and I don't know, one way or another, they met up there in the woods, and my dad -or my grandmother and my uncles and my dad -invited them to stay there at the house, at one of our houses. And they picked a lot of piñon -they picked a lot of piñon. So I guess my mother fell in love with my dad then. She was only sixteen years old. My dad was something like nineteen already, so [he was no sapling?!]. So they got married, and to this day I'm so happy that they got together, because I've got a lot of people in New Mexico, too. I've got a lot of cousins and stuff. As everybody knew, then there was big families -all over. If you can feed one kid with one hamburger, you can feed a whole bunch with a pot of arroz, frijoles, whatever. It was beautiful then, because of that. Now, you go get a pizza, sixteen dollars! Makes me angry. I mean, not that I mind, because now....

Muñoz: You can use that for other ways of feeding your family. That's what you're saying.

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: Well, you covered a lot of my questions, but I'm going to go back to your parents, when they came to the state of Arizona, you would say they landed in Cosnino. Was that because of the employment?

Estrella: Yes. They were called braceros then, because some of them were contracted to kind of work either railroads, sawmills -but they were contracted from Mexico to come here. My people came -I don't say that they were contract, but they knew that there were jobs here, so they came. My wife's folks came a little later, maybe 1907 or something. They were fleeing the Revolucion.

Okay, turning back to the braceros- so that's what they used to call.... Well, my big uncles, they called them braceros, because they came from over there. And then later on in maybe the forties, they started calling them Chicanos. Well, it's changed now. Now, a Chicano is somebody born here, and now they call them mojados. So it's changed, three times it's changed. Before they were braceros. The word itself, I don't know what it is, but something to do with work. [I've been told it comes from "arms," because they work with their arms. (Tr.)]

Muñoz: And so your parents both met here in Flagstaff and here's where they married?

Estrella: Right.

Muñoz: Was that a trade that your father had when he came to work for the railroad, or timber?

Estrella: Well, my dad didn't come, my dad was too young -but my uncles and my grandmother did.

Muñoz: Oh, okay. Was that a trade that they had from over there, that they did, whether they worked at the railroad?

Estrella: They all worked in sawmills. They came following the trees. That's why we're here.

Muñoz: Oh, so you've always been timber people.

Estrella: My Uncle Arturo Adelia worked about sixty years for timber. My Uncle [Leo?], he's the youngest one, he worked about forty-some years. Mike Adelia, my cousin, which is Arturo's, he worked, I don't know, about fifty years. Everybody worked many years. Then the oldest uncle I got, he gave it up. He started cuttin' wood, his own, and he used to cut wood and take it to the steam plant. They had a steam plant that carried steam all over town, to heat up the town‑-libraries and the whole thing. And I remember them just working and working and cutting wood, my dad, everybody. Everybody worked. But the only time they would stop is around this time again. I love this time, October, because they would stop and kill about six, seven hogs, and there was a feast. Mosia‑-you know what mosia is?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: I still make it.

Muñoz: Oh, do you?!

Estrella: In fact, I got some in my refrigerator.

Muñoz: Is that right?!

Estrella: We just killed a hog here two weeks ago.

Muñoz: Okay, that tradition, from your mother, from New Mexico, did you learn that tradition?

Estrella: No, from my grandmother. Every tradition, mostly, we got it from my grandmother. Of course, my grandmother had a restaurant, too. When she came to Flagstaff from Cosnino, she set up a little restaurant right in between Chuy's Pool Hall and Chin Chun Chan, which was a bar. It had a little cubby hole there, and I remember well, she did the same thing: all the workers stopped there for their lunch in the morning. Every morning they'd stop, going to the sawmill, wherever they worked.

Muñoz: What was that name? What was that restaurant called?

Estrella: I don't remember. It was just a little hole in the wall. I remember her working so hard. But it was in between Chin Chun Chan and el pool de Chuy's spino. It was right in between there.

Muñoz: Okay. My question who were they employed by? You already said in Cosnino they were working for....

Estrella: It was a little sawmill there, yeah.

Muñoz: Okay. And they'd been in the timber business ________.

Estrella: They'd been in the timber business, well, all their lives.

Muñoz: Okay. So your first home, you said, was [on] San Francisco.

Estrella: Four sixteen South San Francisco Street. That's where I was born. It belongs to the Valdivias.

Muñoz: Okay, I was gonna [ask].

Estrella: The younger Valdivias, it belongs to them now. It's right across, a little to the side of, across the street from El Charro.

Muñoz: Yeah, I know which one it is. And it's Roy Valdivia that I think has that.

Estrella: Okay, Roy and them, yes.

Muñoz: All right. That house, was it bought or rented?‑-the one you lived in when you were growing up.

Estrella: Where I was born? It was my grandmother's, she bought it.

Muñoz: She bought it from whom?

Estrella: That happened a long time ago. I remember being a little kid there.

Muñoz: Okay, so you don't remember exactly. Okay.

Estrella: No.

Muñoz: So in that neighborhood, you've already described that neighborhood was a real nice neighborhood.

Estrella: Beautiful neighborhood. People were so nice there. I mean, everybody helped each other. I'll tell you something about that homestead. Yes, 1935 my grandmother sold that house to Mike Valdivia.

Muñoz: Macario?

Estrella: Macario Valdivia. Macario Valdivia paid her with a car, an old Chrysler‑-one of those big, rambling cars. We used to go piñon hunting with her in that car. We had to pay Grandma one cup of piñons. We'd go out here to Winona, and there was a lot of piñons, and that's the way we paid her for gas and stuff like that‑-all of us. It was a touring car. And some of us went on the fenders. Like, you know, those fenders, the old cars, they have the fenders. So that's the way we went. I tell you, we had so much fun! We didn't have no TV. The only person that had a radio in my neighborhood was Don Isobelle Navarro, and Ramon Navarro. Okay, they had a radio, and dinnertime, Joe Louis would fight, which was in the early thirties. He put it on the window, and everybody would sit around and just listen to the fight, or baseball games, because they would come out of El Paso, Del Rio, Texas. They would come from New York, or wherever it came from, and they would be translated there in Del Rio, Texas. Then they would go everywhere in English, which was great. [Does he mean they would be translated into Spanish, and then go everywhere? (Tr.)]

Muñoz: The types of food. Well, because your grandma was in the restaurant business, what types of foods do you remember growing up with?

Estrella: Frijoles, tortillas, tamales, enchiladas, candios, mocia, chicarones‑-nothing but basic Mexican food. We had homemade tortillas. My aunts would make ________. After she finished with the restaurant, there was no restaurant anymore, she kept her big stove, and they could make about ten tortillas [at once]. So some of the tias, and my mother, were rolling them out, and there were two tias over there, turning 'em over. (stammers) ... just go and get it, and then my grandmother, well, she was very.... We had a cow named Wimpy, and she'd make butter, and she'd make everything. So you know, a tortilla and butter is so good. It's better when you're a kid. You haven't got any, have you? (Muñoz laughs) And my uncle and my dad used to ________.

Muñoz: _________, uh-huh.

Estrella: You know. And we'd go in there, and he'd squirt us with that milk, and it was the happiest time of our lives. That was really happy.

Muñoz: You really enjoyed it.

Estrella: We had a cow, when a lot of people didn't have them. At that time, we had to go walking over there where Lumberjack Stadium is. That used to be flat over there, a lot of grass, near the cemetery. So we didn't have to take the cow, but we'd have to stay with her, because she was a tourist, she wanted to go everywhere.

Muñoz: She wandered everywhere, huh?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: So then you grew your own vegetables?

Estrella: Yes, that's another thing. We had our own nodia, we had our own water. It wasn't against the law to use well water. We used well water for everything.

Muñoz: Okay, and that would be on San Francisco, that was your well water?

Estrella: Right, right there. From that block building that's there. We had chile, we had maize, we had all kinds of vegetables. They tell that there was a big Depression, but I don't remember that big Depression, because about that time my dad was working up here with Mr. Holt. He was a rancher up here the other side of the Peaks. Once in a while he'd bring a haunch of beef or deer or something. So we were always well fed. What we suffered with was candy‑-we didn't have no money. My aunt used to make some‑-in summertime‑-watermelon candy. It was the best candy I ever tasted in my life, watermelon candy.

Muñoz: I bet! Okay, you mentioned little neighborhood stores, which was Christina's and Salvador Mir. Right?

Estrella: Uh-huh.

Muñoz: You don't remember any others around in the neighborhood?

Estrella: Well, those three were on San Francisco Street. Then there was another little bitty store which belonged to Don Salvador Cortez.

Muñoz: Oh, okay. And that would be located where?

Estrella: Right in front of where El Paso Norte is. Right where the mission is right now.

Muñoz: Okay, Rescue Mission. All right. School: What school did you attend?

Estrella: What's the name of the school down here, the first school?

Muñoz: South Beaver? Brannen School?

Estrella: Brannen. I went to baby class, first grade. Then if I remember correctly, 1933 or '34, we moved to South Beaver School. And I was one of the originals going to South Beaver School. That's where I went to. And then straight from there we went to Flag High or Junior High, and then to Flag High.

Muñoz: So what year would you say when you started school? How old were you, do you remember?

Estrella: Well I was seven years old when I started school. They wouldn't let you start before that. I don't know why.

Muñoz: Okay, what was school like then, do you remember?

Estrella: It was really good, because I remember Mrs. Vandevier, and she taught here for a hundred years, I guess. (stammers)

Muñoz: Laura Kinsey? No?

Estrella: No, Laura Kinsey was after. (pause) I'll tell you, when we were at South Beaver is when I remember.... Mrs. Acker! Mrs. Acker was the other one. Mrs. Acker and Mrs. Vandevier were here. And Mr. Robles started there, Robert Robles. And then we moved to South Beaver. Then we had Mrs. Baker, Mrs. Schnebly, Robert Robles, Tony Lubasich, Weitzel, and Mr. Castro came there after we left and went to the junior high school.

Muñoz: Okay. And your friends at school, were they pretty much your neighborhood friends? Or did you make friends from other areas?

Estrella: There was nobody from any other area. Most of the South Beaver.... No, there was some kids from La Plaza Vieja. There was some kids there. There was a lot of kids there. But you usually only hung together. You know how it is in our Latino way‑-we stay more or less together. So we stayed with.... I remember Bennie Inigas' sister, Rebecca‑-she lived right across from River de Flag, and at lunch hour, I raced her home, and she could run faster than I could. All of us ran _____________. (tape turned off and on)

Muñoz: Okay, Mr. Estrella, you were talking about the school and all your teachers there. I'm sorry there was an interruption.

Estrella: Well, the teachers at South Beaver, shall I tell you again?

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: Well, there was Robert Robles, Tony Lubasich. There was McCauley. She married a movie star, which is Bob Baker, the cowboy. And Mrs. Nyland. Mrs. Patchenka‑-she was the art teacher. And there was another one, Mrs. Polock, of the Polocks here, the big ranchers. And Weitzel. And Castro came later, and all those people came later. I didn't know.... My brothers might have known 'em, or my little sisters might have known 'em. Then I went to the junior high school, and the teachers over there were Dickinson, Mr. Redman, Mr. Kilip. And Baker moved up there, too‑-Mrs. Baker.

Muñoz: Did you have a role model when you were growing up?

Estrella: I would think it would be my Uncle John.

Muñoz: Okay, why would that be?

Estrella: Because he was the strongest man I ever knew. He could pick up a hundred-pound sack of beans with an extended arm like that. He could bend horseshoes. He didn't drink. He drank a little bit, because my grandmother used to make beer. In fact, we stole a little bit of beer from my grandma. My cousin, Arturo Adelia, Jr.‑-we used to go down there and Elias Robano, my other cousin, we used to go down there. She had like a cellar, and we used to steal some of the beer‑-but my grandmother knew about it. My grandmother would always know what we were doing‑-always. In fact, we picked up some cigarette butts, when we were kids, right there near Chin Chun Chan and them. And we went under the bridge, on San Francisco Street, or where the water came, and were smoking. My grandmother had a stick with her and found us. She went over to the store, Luis, Don Lucito, and bought us, I remember, some Camels and made us smoke all the Camels. I did not smoke until after I come out of the service. And I was twenty-one years old.

Muñoz: She taught you a lesson, huh?! Okay, was there anyone that you admired when you were growing up?

Estrella: I don't think so. Just like I told you, my Uncle John.

Muñoz: He was very important to you?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: Okay, did you have an idea, or did you know what you wanted to do or be when you grew up?

[END TAPE 1, SIDE A; BEGIN SIDE B]

Estrella: Later on, I was sixteen years old. Curly and I, we went over there and bought a couple of horses. My horse's name was Blondie‑-it was a blonde horse. And he had red. And we'd ride 'em all over the place. I guess I wanted to be a cowboy, bad‑-really bad I wanted to be a cowboy.

Muñoz: Why would that be? Because you watched a lot of cowboy movies?

Estrella: Yes, maybe so. We used to go to Flagstaff Theater and pay a nickel and go see Buck Jones and Ken Mayner and Lash LaRue and all those old-time cowboys‑-Tom Mix. Not John Wayne, John Wayne wasn't even then.

Muñoz: Okay. Language. Was Spanish your first language?

Estrella: Exactly right.

Muñoz: Was that hard? When you were going to school, would that be kind of a hard thing to learn English? Did you have trouble communicating?

Estrella: Yes, it was very hard. We knew English, too, because like my Uncle John was a college graduate, and he would talk to us in Spanish. And my dad was very knowledgeable. The first word that I remember him saying, "Son, do you know what 'abroad' is?" "No, Dad." "Well, it means 'overseas.'" And then like my Uncle John, we would talk to him in Spanish. He would say, __________. I said, "What's that word? A new word! I love it!" And I did. And I said, "What is it?" "It means _________." Indubitably. I'm agreeing to what you say, even if it's English. My dad could get a newspaper. If it was in English, he would read it in Spanish to my grandma. And if it was in Spanish, my mother didn't know how to read. He would translate it into English for her. He could read exactly word by word. He only went to the sixth grade.

Muñoz: Here in the United States? Or....

Estrella: Yeah, right here in Flagstaff. That's all. He went to the sixth grade, and he could do that. It was a natural talent for him. So no, we knew English. What made me angry about it was that we couldn't talk on the school grounds. And anybody can cuff you, if you were in a store or depot, or something like that, because you were talking Spanish. I was born with it, and over in my neighborhood, everybody talked Spanish, and it wasn't a sin. But if you go across the tracks, it was a sin to talk [Spanish]. And some of the people, like I remember Mr. Harper, he was great. There was another man, worked for Babbitts, he was a meat cutter. I don't exactly remember his name, but he also was very, very.... He wanted to learn Spanish words, you know, because there was a lot of Spanish-speaking people here, and he wanted to learn the cuts of meat in Spanish, just like that. And then he ran the slaughterhouse, which I worked in the slaughterhouse when I was a kid.

Muñoz: What slaughterhouse would that be?

Estrella: That's Babbitts Slaughterhouse. It used to be right there where the Orchid Paper Mill is right now. And the Horhorkays are the ones that ran it‑-Don Samuel Horhorkay, and Fred Horhorkay, John Horhorkay‑-all of 'em. That's what they were, butchers. And I worked for them.

Muñoz: So did you feel any discrimination in school or in the community?

Estrella: By "community," you mean Flagstaff?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Yes. There was always that. In school there was more so. Because really, it was against the law to talk Spanish‑-that's what they told us‑-it was against the law or something. You couldn't talk Spanish, you had to talk English. In fact, this, I don't like to say it, but I'm going to say it: This man, his name is David Cervantes. He knew I liked cowboy shirts, so he gave me a cowboy shirt, and it was gabardine‑-beautiful shirt. And this Mr. Dickinson, I was walking down the aisle, he grabbed me and tore it, tore it off of me. And I don't know why, I didn't do nothin', I was just goin' from class to class. And I hit him.

Muñoz: The teacher?

Estrella: I beat the heck out of him. I really did, because that was the only shirt.... Well, I had another shirt, but that was beautiful. It was gabardine, and he tore it from me. And they expelled me from school for about a week, I guess, and I had to stay away from Mr. Dickinson. Mr. Redman was our principal, and he said, "Stay away from Mr. Dickinson." Mr. Dickinson was one of those people‑-rednecks‑-I don't know what you call 'em. They were prejudiced then, but now they call them little rednecks or whatever. I'm not proud of that.

Muñoz: No, but it happened.

Estrella: It happened to me, my own. It hurt me so much.

Muñoz: Sure, you were hurt.

Estrella: It hurt me so much, me being a kid. And I was only, what, thirteen years old. But one thing I could do was fight.

Muñoz: Why did he do that, do you know?

Estrella: I don't know‑-to this day, I don't know. ________ like that. He was coming that way, and he grabbed me and tore my shirt. And to this day, I don't know why he did it. But he never liked Mexicans anyway.

Muñoz: So you had an experience in school.

Estrella: Oh, I had experiences in school.

Muñoz: How about in the community? Did you experience that, too?

Estrella: Yes, like....

Muñoz: The barbershop?

Estrella: About the barbershop, yeah. It said, "White trade only." You couldn't even go in there and do nothin'. You know, some other people that I know that were great? The Knoles. The Knoles, they had Knoles Bakery. We used to go up there, and we used to go over there to Penney's and get boxes, and we'd sell the boxes to the bakeries. And we'd get bread. We'd get all kinds of bread. And the Knoles were great for that. Day-old bread. So what?! Bread!

Muñoz: That's right, that's right. Okay, how about discrimination among the Spanish people?

Estrella: Some of 'em. Some of 'em were a little‑-

they were more well-to-do than the other ones, and they more or less [which they have for centuries?] looked down at the one that doesn't have as much, or whatever. But really, it all evens out. In the Spanish community, it all evens out. It doesn't even out, like in school‑-you still have problems, but they keep it down.

Muñoz: That also included the Basque people. I don't know if you knew the difference between Bascos and....

Estrella: Bascos __________ Españoles.

Muñoz: Yeah.

Estrella: I know. I know all my Hispanic people, more or less.

Muñoz: (chuckles) And then of course they had a difference in language, a dialect of Spanish.

Estrella: Oh, yeah, the dialect‑-French/Spanish dialect. And those are the strongest people I ever met, as a whole‑-the Bascos. The strongest people. I don't know what it is. One of them told me, "Vino!" But I don't know, about a little vino.

Muñoz: Yeah, they use that a lot. (laughs) Was there many that lived around the neighborhood that you lived in‑-Españoles or Bascos?

Estrella: Well, sure.

Muñoz: Okay, name some.

Estrella: Well, for one, the Miers. David was my age; Salvador and Mary; Don Salvador, the old man and his wife. I don't remember her name. But then there's Florindo Gomez. Florindo Gomez showed me how to pit barbecue down in the ground. And I showed him how to pit barbecue beans down in the ground, so we exchanged. But the reason that he showed me was‑-I'm not gonna say no names on there, 'cause these guys are buddies of mine‑-but they'd go up there and we'd make barbecue for Joe Pylin, Joe's place. They would donate that meat to him, and we would go up there ________ and cook it underground. Okay. So the reason he taught me so well to cook like that, was that the first thing he told me, "I don't want you drinkin'," because Joe Pylin would take a whole case of whiskey, keg of beer. Some of the other guys would be drinkin' after a while. You work around that fire, it's a pit as big from here to you, or longer. And so I didn't drink. He say's, "Now you can drink." After we buried the meat, we did that. Sometimes Frank Ousa, they were cookin' over on the other side, and we were cookin' over here. And we got along fine, great. You know, the Spanish community here, there were a lot of 'em that they're goin', a lot of borregedos that came or used to be here seasonal, just in summertime, when the borregedos were here. But there was a lot of 'em, and all seemed very.... There was no friction between Español and Mexicano, Mexicano __________.

Muñoz: Okay. Good deal. And you've given me your church that you attended. How about cemeteries? Do you remember any?

Estrella: Oh, my God, we remember a lot of things about cemeteries, because [as] kids, we would go up there. See, the cemetery is at the end of San Francisco Street. There was nothing in between. Maybe, you know, I don't know, but there was no ball field, there was no high-rise buildings like they've got now. All right, it was straight across. The cemetery goes down like this. Okay, we go in there 'til it got darker and darker, and we'd be saying very spooky stories, a bunch of guys. Spooky stories and see who would give up first. So one day, I don't know where I found a tire, but we were all rolling tires. I found a tire, both sides were white on the sides. That's when they first started white-wall tires. Well, I was the leader of the bunch anyway, and the other guys had black tires. So here we go, and were saying the [scary] stories. The more we said, the scareder we were lookin'. We were right in between all the santos, whatever, right there. But one of 'em get up, and go over there. He wouldn't leave his tire. Your tire was your own tire. You found that tire, and that's the one you used. So I wouldn't leave my tire. My tire was white sidewall. So I was the last one to leave, but about two seconds after the other guy, but I was the last one, who stayed there, was macho man. Okay, so here we were doing a tire like this, and I thought I heard something behind me. I left the tire, to heck with the tire! So we started runnin', and I passed half of them, and we _____ back, and there was something following us, something white following us. It was my tire! (laughter) I mean, we were really running, as fast as we could. But that, like I tell you, was an incline from the cemetery down to where San Francisco starts now. Right on the fence of NAU.

So yes, we used to have a good time. In fact, we got a lot of our animals there, ardias, the chipmunks and stuff, that's where we got 'em, because there was hoses out there. We had one hose, we'd hide all the time, and we'd put it down the hole and we'd grab the thing, sell them to the college. Like I tell you, we just had a ball.

Muñoz: Was that a job that you guys picked up on your own, or you knew you could make money that way? Was that a way to help you or your family? What was that all about?

Estrella: Well, it was just.... In fact, my brother and I modeled in the art classes in loincloth, and they used to pay something like a dollar an hour, which was great, for the art classes. Toby, he's right there in that picture. But we modeled for the art class.

Muñoz: What year was that?

Estrella: Oh, that must have been‑-I was about ten years old, eleven years old.

Muñoz: You did have a good time when you were growing up!

Estrella: Oh, like I tell everybody, I tell this kid‑-I was a champion marble player in the whole neighborhood. I could take all the marbles. It was one man that could take my marbles all the time, and he always took 'em. His name was Tony Rodriguez. His mother was Mrs. Rodriguez, the truant officer. Have you ever heard of her, Doña Maris?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: She came all the way from Ireland. And she was[n't?] a mean woman. She was strict. Well, that was her son. So we played Bull Ring. You know what a Bull Ring is? Everybody put‑-there was a big circle‑-ten marbles or whatever in there. And Tony said, "Let's play Bull Ring." He was a custodian there! "Let's play Bull Ring." I said, "Okay." I knew I was good. And we'd lag and see who'd shoot first and stuff. And pretty soon, all the marbles in there, the bell would ring, we'd run inside. We had to run inside. There was Mr. Weitzel, who'd see who's late. Well, you know who got all the marbles! Tony got all the marbles, 'cause he always played marbles with us. He was a custodian.

Muñoz: So he knew what time to go play marbles! (laughs)

Estrella: Oh yeah, he knew.

Muñoz: So he'd beat you at marbles. You were in the area of San Francisco Street, and that was your neighborhood. How about Los Chantes? What do you remember about Los Chantes?

Estrella: We couldn't go very well over there because we'd get in big fights, because los Mesas were over there, los Lopez.

Muñoz: The Ceballoses?

Estrella: The Ceballoses, and we'd have to get in a fight. We didn't have to go up there to get in a fight, we'd just wait to go to the dance at the Armory, and we'd fight there. ___________ almost.

Muñoz: (laughs) For no reason at all?

Estrella: Well, yeah. I dance with a girl, and somebody took offense. Or they'd dance with a girl and I took offense, or whatever. It was a big, happy family, what I'm saying‑-big happy family. We didn't say, "Well, I'm gonna get that guy." There was nothing. We'd drink out of the same bottle. After we were older, we'd drink out of the same bottle. You know, we got in fights and stuff like that. There was never any bad, bad blood or feelings there.

Muñoz: I asked about El Santo. Do you remember that Santo?

Estrella: ¿El Santo de la Plaza Vieja? Sure.

Muñoz: No, the Chantes.

Estrella: Oh, El Santo de Los Chantes? That, too. I remember Lo Hito, we used to go get water over there.

Muñoz: Oh, really?

Estrella: Yeah, up there. You know where Lo Hito is?

Muñoz: By Old Town?

Estrella: Yeah, in the Old Town. Yeah, I remember La Llorona ____________. We used to go up there. My grandmother and I, we'd walk clear over there. At first there was just the highway. Afterwards, Saginaw and Manistee, they put a banquetta, wood, and you'd walk, and you'd make a lot of noise, walkin' down through there. Y los Espidos, they lived over there, too. So we'd go over there and sometimes I'd stay all night with my grandma. Well, I stayed until she got home. I don't know why I was elected to go. I knew all about births.

Muñoz: Oh, you did? Because you were with her all the time.

Estrella: Yeah. I was born under her, too.

Muñoz: And your grandma was named what?

Estrella: Blasa Rodriguez.

Muñoz: So she did cover the vicinity of....

Estrella: She covered the whole thing. Yeah, because remember I told you they said something about a curandera. I don't remember, me growing up, otra curandera _____ mama, mi abuela. I remember Dr. Sechrist comin' over to our house, and talkin' to my grandma. And Dr. Raymond coming over to the house and talking to my grandmother, because she had a lot of herbs. She'd go out in the woods, she'd take one of us, and we'd have to carry her herbs and stuff like that. She'd know where to get 'em.

Muñoz: She'd know what to use, huh? Okay. The Santo was going towards that, because do you know why they put it in the Chantes? Do you know the reason?

Estrella: In Los Chantes?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Oh, in Los Chantes. Well, por La Llorona, _________________. They put like‑-we're very superstitious. It doesn't matter if we say, "No, we're not superstitious"‑-we are superstitious. So that was because of La Urona. They would hear.... Well, right there, you're close to the woods, so there's always coyotes‑-there was wolves, then. You know? And have you ever heard a mountain lion cry?

Muñoz: No.

Estrella: It's like a woman screaming.

Muñoz: Is that right?

Estrella: I've heard 'em. I've heard 'em many times out in the woods. So, yes, we are superstitious. They're our superstitions, but we'll keep 'em.

Muñoz: It was for that reason they put it there, okay.

Now, I'm covering weddings, traditionally. Do you remember how those were celebrated or recognized?

Estrella: Well, I was there when my Tio José Mendoza y Tia Julia got married. And it's the same, it doesn't change. To me, it doesn't change, _______. They had the whole thing. Then they had a fiesta going on all night‑-like wakes.

Muñoz: That's good, because I was going to ask you about that. Wakes were at home?

Estrella: Wakes were done in the house, and a lot of people got a lot drunk! You stayed up all night long. We were kids, looking at them. Weddings were just like they are right now. And they were held, like the Methodist Church had a small sala in the back. Okay, but we have access to the Federated Church, because the minister from over there, the minister from over here were good buddies. So sometimes they'd take us all over there to services. We'd mingle over there with the crowd over there and stuff. Mr. Harper belonged to that one, then. Our minister's name was Mr. Berman. I'll never forget him, because he was such a nice man.

Muñoz: You mentioned Mr. Harper. You also told me that church on San Francisco, that Methodist Evangelist Church, was moved from....

Estrella: From up there, the other side of the courthouse. See, they moved it on rollers. They moved it all the way down. There wasn't that many cars, you know‑-maybe a couple of horses, but no [cars].

Talkin' about horses, have you ever heard of Mountain Joe?

Muñoz: No.

Estrella: Mountain Joe‑-there was an old family here. I don't remember his last name‑-Monterez or something like that. But they had horses and cows. Okay, Mountain Joe used to tell us a story. He lived right across. I don't know why Curly didn't tell you. They lived right next to Curly. One day he said, we were talking with Mountain Joe, and he said, "Well, I'm tired, I'm really tired." "What happened to you, Mountain?" He says, "My dad sent me out for the cows last night." They did have cattle. "And I went out on my horse and it was dark. I just brought 'em all in and put 'em in the corral. The next day my day whooped me." I said, "Well, why did he whip you?" And I was believing all of this. I said, "Why did he whip you?" He said, "Well, there's a bunch of bears in the corral. I didn't see." He used to ride a horse, mouse-colored horse, beautiful horse. Right in front of‑-now they call it the Rancho Grande‑-but he'd tie that horse right there in front, and commence to drink all day long. Jim Wright, the policeman there, or the sheriff, they would tell him he'd better go. "You'd better go." He'd keep the horse right there. He'd get drunk, and the horse would be out there just waiting for him. I remember that, because I loved horses so much. But I don't know why Curly didn't tell you. He knows the last name of these people.

Muñoz: Okay, let me ask him about Mountain Joe.

We talked about funerals and rosaries at home. Baptismals, the same thing, at home.

Estrella: How's that?

Muñoz: Your baptismals, were they celebrated at home, or at the church?

Estrella: Yes. The baptismals were different. The baptismals, they'd take you over to Oak Creek, and dunk you down in there.

Muñoz: What part of Oak Creek? Where in Oak Creek? Chavez Crossing?

Estrella: No, way before. Almost up here where really the water is cold. Manzanita. They'd dunk you down in there. They'd dunk you in there and keep you down in there and baptize you like that. Then we'd have a big picnic up there. So that was our baptismals.

Muñoz: Entertainment, movies. Did you see many movies? Well, you mentioned all the western movies.

Estrella: Well, there was those cowboy movies and stuff. But later on we saw, like, Grapes of Wrath. My mother just loved that Grapes of Wrath. And that was during the time.... We had a good time there, too. You know what it was, The Grapes of Wrath?

Muñoz: Depression.

Estrella: Okay, it was the exodus from Oklahoma. Okay. But we'd see, yeah, they were migrants.

Muñoz: Right, right.

Estrella: There was a big tank of water there at Santa Fe, right on San Francisco Street and the tracks.

Muñoz: Yeah, I remember.

Estrella: Okay, and there was a wall there. And we'd set there and see all the cars pass‑-all the old cars on [Highway] 66. There was a lot of excitement. "What's happening? What's happening?" We didn't dare go too much over the tracks, because it was more or less forbidden, unless you go up there to buy something. So everybody bought most of their food over at Food Town. Remember where Food Town was?

Muñoz: Uh-huh.

Estrella: Okay, that's where we bought our food, right on Beaver.

Muñoz: It was forbidden to go over the tracks?

Estrella: Well, it wasn't forbidden, but yet, _________ (both talking at once).

Muñoz: Discrimination?

Estrella: ___________ you're a little older, the kids over there. I mean, they didn't like you coming into their‑-it's a territorial rights, whatever you call it. There were no gringos coming down on the south side either! (Muñoz laughs) I mean, you didn't see anybody. We'd have our fiestas right on San Francisco Street. We'd have our Jamaicas. It started right there on Clay, which is Butler now, up to El Rancho Grande Road right there, and we'd have our fiestas [right in the road?], Jamaicas, oh, beautiful. They had their queens, the Fifth of June [May], or the Sixth [Sixteenth] of September. We had beautiful, beautiful, and they'd stop everything, and they had booths and stuff like. I don't know if they can do it now, but it was so beautiful there.

Muñoz: The fiestas ______. That would be the Sixteenth of September and El Cinco de Mayo, huh?

Estrella: Yeah, Cinco de Mayo. They had their queen, like they have, yet. But that's where we celebrated it. And then at night, they had the dance there, too.

Muñoz: The movie houses, where were they located, do you remember?

Estrella: All right, yes. Flagstaff Theater was located on San Francisco Street, right where‑-you know that new café, right there where the alley is, the other side?

Muñoz: Okay. It used to be Carl's Shoe Store?

Estrella: Yeah.

Muñoz: And then....

Estrella: Quality, and stuff. Okay. Okay, that same alley, going south, used to be another theater. The name of it was.... In fact, that sign is over there.... That sign of that theater is over there where they used to have roller skating, ______ roller skating rink. I don't remember, but that also, but they showed more.... But it still cost a nickel, and a nickel for popcorn or whatever. And then you had Orpheum, where you couldn't sit on the bottom‑-upstairs. I liked it.

Muñoz: Because you were Mexican, is that why?

Estrella: We had to. And we didn't care, especially when we were with a girl. I mean, we didn't care. But, funny that we couldn't go down in the plush side of Orpheum.

Muñoz: So you did see, and you did feel a lot of discrimination when you were growing up.

Estrella: Oh, I've seen a lot of that.

Muñoz: Okay, dance halls. I know you know about dance halls.

Estrella: Oh, yeah.

Muñoz: Other than the Armory, what else was there?

Estrella: Well, the Armory....

[END TAPE 1, SIDE B; BEGIN TAPE 2, SIDE A]

Estrella: ... that was the best. But then we had another place, Veterans of Foreign Wars, which was in Los Chantes right near‑-right now, I guess where.... What do you call that little.... It's a corner store right there, gas station.

Muñoz: Pick Quick?

Estrella: Pick Quick. That's around where it was. But that all was.... Then there was the Chantes back there anyway. But there was a sala there. In fact, Alice and I used to go to all the dances there.

Muñoz: It was called Catholic War Veterans?

Estrella: The Catholic War Veterans.

Muñoz: Yes. As a matter of fact, I just saw a picture of that today.

Estrella: I've got a picture of it, but I don't remember where it is‑-of the girls, not of the men‑-the girls, _______. Alice was historian, or something like that.

Muñoz: That was for Mexicanos then, huh?

Estrella: Yeah. It was neat. It wasn't big, it was just like Veterans‑-this one.

Muñoz: The VFW [Veterans for Foreign Wars], uh-huh.

Estrella: VFW. You know, small.