INTERVIEWEE: Mr. Horace Ekker
INTERVIEWER: Mr. John McFarlane
SUBJECT: Life of Horace Ekker
DATE: July 8, 1971
TRANSCRIBER: Paulyne Preator
DATE: November, 1986

This is to be an interview with Mr. Horace Ekker in Hanksville, Utah for the Southeast Utah Project by John McFarlane on July 8, 1971 at 7 o'clock.

JM: Mr. Ekker will you state your full name and age please.
HE: Horace Ekker, 62 on the 20th of August.
JM: I wonder if we could start by asking questions. You could
tell me a little about your first remembrance of
Hanksville when you first came here.
HE: Well, I was born here.
JM: Alright, can we talk a little about your early childhood?
HE: Well, early childhood was---my father was a rancher and cowman and then he had a brother, Zelk who helped with the cattle and so on and there was Andrew Ekker and Cornelius Ekker who was my father and another partner and they sold out here in 1921. We split up and we split the cattle all up and they went - one went - my dad had his outfit and my uncle had his. We lived at a little place called Granite Ranch at 18 miles. I stayed there until 1927 then I went to work for the Western Telegraph Company for two years and then the Utah Power & Light and the Bell Telephone. Then I came back and went into the mining business with my father. I went into the mining business in 1930, and more
I stayed right in the mining business. We had this gold placer in the Hender Mountains and some uranium. In 1932 we worked in this gold from 1931 on through the depression years we worked in the gold. In the spring of the year in the uranium on to the winter time. You know that was our livelihood. That's the way we made our living at that time. And then oh lets see that would be in 1948 - well prior to that we located all over the country from all of the uranium processes, formations and triphite also down at the Delmonts that's down on the other side of the mountain. We located all of that cause we had no way to eat. We mined it all during the war. Mined the uranium and sold it to what they called Metal Reserve it was the beginning of the AEC. In 1944 I made a survey for you. I went down the other side of the mountain and we made a contour map of all of the ?? formations from Bull Frog to Hanksville. And then of course all that information went to the AEC. Then in 1948 I got a lease from .... we sold out in 1944 then I leased it back in 1948. We were in the uranium business from '48 to '54. Then I went to work for the company after I got through mining for our selves. The company was Interstate Mining and Exploration out of New York. The company was the Purjell Brothers, they were the ones that was in the uranium business back during Madam Curie time and this company, the Purjell Brothers they were, the Alexander Purjell was the Vice President or President or something. Then after that shortly after the Purjell Brothers while I was working for them they acquired a group of cranes up here on the Muddy right next to this pick mine. You remember what the pick deal is. Well we went in there by helicopters and flew those rigs, the Boyle Brothers rigs, on top of that mesa and drilled down. We drilled seven holes back behind that pick formation to ease up the ore. We never got one earthly thing. We spent $350,000 there and never got a smell. Shortly after that the Purjell Brothers called me into Grand Junction and I went into Grand Junction and talked to them and I told them I said "Now the best thing for us to do is to pull that outfit out of there cause we made a test on it and there's nothing there. Let's get out and get way and hang to our little bits of property that we've got in the Hendy Mountains and so on and the property that they required here they sold out for $150,000 and got some of their money back out of the uranium business. Then after that, of course, it was time you know, time lapsed in there and uranium was quite a room all the time and it was terrible. I think it was about one year maybe in the prior locators of a lot of property and no one owned a lot of the property then on and it was just about one year that I just spent hardly any time but in court. I was on the witness stand in Emery County Court House for ten days and I was on the witness stand every Jay for ten days. It was just a terrible mess and claim jumpers would come in you know. You could be working on one side of the hill like on the out crust from the uranium out crust you could be working there and on the other side the people would come in and stake right over the top of your claim. The sooner they staked over the top of you, you were in litigation.
JM: Right.
HE: It was terrible. Then after the uranium business kind of went down then Sylvia and I, we built that little cafe here in Hanksville we were in there for eleven or twelve years - eleven years and then I - during the winter time when things were dead my wife flew back out here. We've got a
few things left. We got a little ore and then three years ago I went back to work for the State Road Commission and I've been there ever since.
JM: O.K. Jim, we back up to a little bit to where you first got you in the mining business and can we talk about - a little bit about the mining business as it first was. How you had to get the ore out, about the roads.
HE: Well, back in 1932, and '33 we had claims on the other side of the mountain and they wasn't no way - there was no roads

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in there at all. We would go down there and camp out just like a bunch of Indians and dig this ore and pack it out to Trachyte that's 35 miles southeast - that was the end of the road. We would pack it out there on horses, pile it up until we got a truck load and then we would take it and go to Denver. Shadow Chemical Company in Denver they had a mill in Denver at that time. They processed ore and bought the ore from us.
JM: Was that the closest mill?
HE: That was the closest one at that time. Back in 1932 and '33, along in there. Then we build a little concentrator with a company out here called it "Utah Banadium concentrate and they were very satisfactory the concentrates were but our recovery was very poor. I chipped the core, 22.5 tons, that was the minimum core and I chipped that back to Pittsburgh. That was 1932. Well, it was the fall of 1932 and it just didn't work out it just didn't plan out, the mill didn't plan out for the simple reason that the recovery was only about 60 to 65%. Most of the values were going out in the flying fields. We didn't get any values from it.
JM: That was banadium?
HE: Banadium and uranium too, see that was the difference this ore in the Hener Mountains was all core type or ore and that is ac combination of uranium and banadium. (???) by everybody you hall the mills they never turned us down on any of the ore of any kind. On account it was a real good ore. But they've gone into reserve the AEC claims that they have quite a reserve in the Inter-Mountain area. It is low grade. All of the good ore is gone - it is hard to get to. In fact to produce ore with the prices ac it is now you have to go underground, you know, and fix up co that you can mine it why it is just a little to hard but it is not in the cards to produce that way. But if we had a mill or something around close, a concentrator or something well then they could move all the low grade ore that they by pass They claim now that they can, that they have ways of paddling the ore. If we just had a mill set up in this area come where close I think we would get a lot of uranium content yet out of the area.
JM: Could we talk just a little bit more about - you said you had to pack it out by horses and by mules. Now all of your work was done by hand?
HE: All work done by hand. An all hand steel - when you had to drill a hole you used the hand steel a single jack and drill T and down there we never had anything but a pick and shovel and (???) and powder and when we moved back here when we came back to this area close why then we had a wheel barrow but not down in that area. The fact is -
JM: Who was working with you up there?
HE: My father and my brothers. Sometimes it was a rider and
sometimes Harold, Jeff. Of course Jeff was a little young

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at that time, he was a small boy. Dad and I and Dennis was about the main producers for a long time when we was in the area.
JM: Now did you do fairly well on the other side of the mountain?
HE: Yes, we done alright. We done --that is, you know at that time which was for the simple reason you couldn't get a job. There was no jobs to be had at that time. To amount to anything you see that is close around - you didn't have to move or your expenses would be too great. Well, that is our wages then was $3.00 a day was pretty good wages. We made it, we got along pretty good, of course we could have got along a lot better if we would have - if it things would have been so that you could have got into that area with - had a little equipment to work with. My brother went down there back in 1951. He put some roads in that area and he produced a lot of ore. A lot of ore. Two and 2.5% grade all of the time. Worked it there for several years in the same area that we were in when we first started in with uranium. That was the first ones that was in that country was Standard Chemical Company. Now Standard Chemical Company - that was Standard Chemical Company at the time that they were in there and that was in 1915 or '16 along in there. Then they, their company, finally got Standard Chemical Company was Banatium Corporation of America. That was the beginning.
JM: When you moved back to this side of the mountain then were things a little easier as far as getting your ore out?
HE: Oh, yeah. It was a little easier and closer to where, you know, we had a place to stay and it was - the apartments were bigger - maybe riot as rich and during the time of the war back in 1941 and '44 - well banadium was the main thing and we went right into the banadium business. It was all we could do - produced all we could that is all that we had to do with. We shipped - then they had this metal reserve deal and they set up a buying station at Thompson and then our freight from here there was about - we paid the man about $8.00 a ton to haul our ore from here to Thompson and a lot of times when we go into Thompson with ore it would run 2.5 and 3% banadium. Our banadium held about 3% tried to all of the time. Then we would get into a rich deposit some place, like get a rich deposit we would kind of save that back. I took in one load into Durango to Vichea and it would run 10.60 so that was a real nice little piece of money. Then I took several loads to Rifle, seven, six, five, anything that runs over 4% why they would never let us unload it in Thompson. They didn't wanted us to take it to one of the old mills and pay the freight from there on. We produced a lot of awfully good banadium. Well, then they didn't pay us anything for the uranium contents at that time. But the mills that run that over stocked piled the uranium contents and years later then back in the AEC's beginning the price come up on the uranium and they would

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buy it why then the mills went in run that ore and got that ore you might say free of charge. There they never paid us for the contents. Well, some, quite a lot of the producers, me included, we all got together and we got together at Grand Junction and we hired a couple of the attorneys that went into the situation to see if we could get something out the uranium business. Out of the uranium we shipped to these mills. So one of them would come along and ask me about this and that and I would say "Well, I'll see what I can do about the records. They certainly got the records of the ore that we shipped". And a lot of our ore run 1% ore that we, about like this Durango load and there was several ones that we took to Rife and those places, would run 1 or 1-1/4% uranium. So we came up with a figure of $16,000 uranium costs. Well we messed along with it. We tried to do something about it, some of them got their payments, finally I went into Grand Junction to a friend that we sold ore to prior to that (????) and went and talked to Howard and Howard said "Horace, I believe the best thing for you to do is to get an attorney that will - to hire you an attorney and send him up to Salt Lake and let him work with these men. See what he can come up with. We have decided that is the best thing to do". So I hired this attorney out of Price and gave him all of the data that I had and the liquidation sheets and gathered up a lot of that stuff and he took it up there. Of course he would keep calling me once in a while and asked me about some more information about how much was this and how much was that and so on and I think finally, what did we come up with - about $3,000 out of the $16,000. That was the amount we put in for our claim against the uranium forces I think we put in $16,000 and got $3,000. The uranium business hasn't been you know, in my way - what I had to do with it – it hasn't been too rosy. It was a lot of hard work, it was - when we sold our claims - we sold them in the wrong time. We sold that whole area out here for $8,000 and Purjell Bothers when I turned it over to them they got $150,000 out of it plus a lot more - plus a lot of
other claims. The uranium business back in that time in the 1930's and along the '30's to '35 along in there our only source was with Bitrell Manufacturing Company in Pittsburgh and our quality weren't very good in this area. It was a lot nicer, a lot, lot nicer time to work in the uranium business at that time and sell it to Howard because we didn't have to go through any old red tape and all of this and it comes to a point that you have to have a little advancement for fuel or something to mine with. All you had to do was call Howard and he would send it right out to you and it worked a lot nicer. Course back in them days the price wasn't any good. We produced - the fall that Sylvia and I was married we went out to Trachyte and we produced a car load of ore and hauled it to Green River and put it on the car and Howard had been there and our ore

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ran 1.5% uranium and 3% Upernatium. On his buying schedule the ore has to run with a combination of 5%. Well we were just d little under 5% with the Upernatium and the uranium together, it was just: - I don't know it didn't amount to anything two or three hundredths or something like that. It didn't make any difference. We were paid for the amount of 5% and went right on. Howard was an awful good man with the miners in the uranium business - it just wasn't worth it. And then after we got into the company - ECA, USP and those companies they never had the right kind of staff meetings. Safolings were slow. The AEC had their mills set up over at Monticello at that time. It seemed like if you that you tend to worry at night and us being so having so much experience in digging the ore and knowing what grade we were working for and it would always be short you would never over estimate your percentage. It was all way under what your estimation was. USP. was awful good about pour or safoling and so on and I told the (???) the producers said that the USPU was treating us about as nice as any of them. ECA, we never could do anything you know it was always different with ECA, our digging and everything else. But: USP was mighty good and then Skylite Uranium started in Grand Junction. Tony Mackovitch was the General Superintendent of the Climax Uranium in Grand Junction and he and I were together, he was the Chief of Party all the time that we were on this contour map survey from (??) Martin party and one of the best friends that I ever had in my life. It was Tony Mackovitch. Tony was just wonderful. He was A-•1 about everything and would just bend over to help you and now I don't think we got any producers only the Atlas Corporation out of Moab. It doesn't seem like the producers are very well satisfied with what is going on around this Atlas. A lot of the little producers, we know, like we were back in them times just the little producers just don't seem like they are having any luck with them.
JM: Did you ever haul any ore over the Uravan area out of Rita?
HE: You betcha! Yeah, that: is we never did take any of our ore over into that country but then other miners like Damatoreta, Beshae, they brought 20 planes we had out here on tricite and then they produced that ore themselves and they would - haul that ore to Matereta not here.
JM: How about Union Carbide?
HE: Union Carbide was always there but they never had any - never owned any properties themselves here. We sold ore to Union Carbide and they were very good about everything. I knew a lot of the boys, the General Manager of them you know and they were just wonderful. Johnny Hill was one of them and just as fine a guy as a man would ever meet.
JM: Was Ray Sullivan with them at that time?
HE: Yes, Ray Sullivan anti Mack Britton he - Mack was a good man. He just started out in the uranium business and he was USP. Mighty good.
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JM: Can we talk a little about the discoveries of some of the rich claims up here that you had - how you discovered - I know as far as work but did you have any luck that went along with it any certain thing that you can remember about that?
HE: Well, the experience of knowing the formation. Now, there's quite a lot to that. You got to in knowing how to detect where that formation that it come in and it was that formation, uranium formation, we called it the salt wash member in the marsh and in this particular area the uranium had precipitated into petrified trees or in that group completely replacement of the trees with uranium and banadium and then little trash beds collected. It collected into trash beds. Well, I used a lot of different ideas about where to find it and now it would always come out right. Now we have a loco weed that grows in our area all out through here - a big white loco weed grows up. You go along and see four or five of those bushes - great big healthy loco brush and we - right there we would start digging, pretty soon you would run into top ore. The first time that a geiger counter come out - a fellow came out to North Wash, me and Mr. Waller, Frank Waller, he was with us and he had a little old geiger counter with ear phones on and we was digging in a nice part - it was just beautiful - and was just doing fine and that afternoon the old man, he came out with this old gentlemen, he was from up Dry Ford and he had been in the boom time back in the banadium days at Dry Ford, you know and he came out and stayed with us. They decided that I ought to try to take this Geiger counter, maybe I could do something with it. I went around from where we were eating lunch and a little ways and there is a place that I have seen several times, even when I located the property the first time - the first time I put the stakes on the property. I wanted to dig in that particular spot but it was hard to get there - back in that time...

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BEGIN Part 2

we bought what we called a Burma Jeep. It, was a four-wheel drive and then I could get around there.[I could just go over them sand dunes, around in this old Burma Jeep and got to this particular place that I wanted to go. So I put the ear phones down and set this little old geiger counter down where I wanted to - then I saw this loco weed growing all around there. It was a great big bunch - just beautiful-so I set that little old thing down on that particular spot and it just ticked, you know, it was just a tickin so I just picked it up and went back to where the old gentlemen was there with it and I said, "Well, sir, that there is a mighty nice little outfit you got I found a nice deposit of ore. (Laughter) We got the wheelbarrow, jack hammer and a steel and we went over there. Some of us worked with Mr. Waller but we didn't move that muck over there until we hit one of them old trees and you never saw anything like it. That there tree run for 90 feet and on the front end of that tree a man could stand right up in

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the tree. Stand right up in it. And that ore ran better than 1%. Of course the prices at that time hadn't come up to where it would do any good, you know. And in another place, my Father and I was digging all the tracite one time and the wind was blowing terribly, and oh we was packed up. Dad and I was digging in this spot there and we was digging beautiful ore and I tied this old mule up to a cedar tree and she was in this wind a blowing and she kept a pawing and she would just stand there and paw and she pulled out a chunk of petrified tree that was all saturated with uranium. So went and got the shovel and started digging in there and I done the same thing - ran right into another big great big tree and we dug 90 feet of tunnel on that tree and never fired a shot. Never fired a shot - went right back into the formation and had the most beautiful big round hole like that and all we had to do was dig the center out of that tree and then had a hard tissue for about four inches thick around the out side. You just take the pick and cut through that hard tissue - take the crow bar and pry it down and make this-- and that was some of the ore that I had in the - was one of the loads of ore that I took to Dalamenita. Well, now that whole tree would have been more than 1% uranium and 4 to 5% banadium and all we got paid for was the uranium content in it. Then a lot of the other places, you know - oh it didn't take no time--you go across and walk the formation and you would see this particular area, you know - the brush would look - even the brush itself would be better right close to uranium and little coloration in the ground or ant holes - or anything like that - you could see where they - even the ants would pile that uranium with one of the ant hills and you know darn gone well it was right there close. All of the easy ore is gone its hard to produce that type of ore any more. Several different owners will go into and well, I always claim they go in an area and if they find a real nice spot of ore they will spoil it for the simple reason they think all of that will run and they take it to market and they don't get any money on it. They just wouldn't understand that digging at that price of ore you got to keep it clean or you will just contaminate it, and it doesn't pay out.
JM: Spraying - do you do with a big machine?
HE: Well, come in with motors, strippers and you know - in a lot of places you know you can go in and strip an area off like that and you take up the ore and keep it clean. In this Morrison it is hard to dig it and keep it clean. Then they will get too much sand in it when they load it. Oh, dear, it is just disgusting at times to see how some of them try to produce ore. They just didn't understand how to dig it that's all, I always claim. When you've got a good grade of ore you gotta keep it clean, if you get a pound of sand along with a pound of good ore you can see how much contamination you got right there. It cuts your grade down.
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JM: Do you remember some of the stories about some of the early mines?
HE: Oh, Yeah! The Happy Jack. Now the Happy Jack was a big producer. When I worked for the company, when I worked for Interstate Mining and Expiration we had two exchange students come to us. The company asked us to take care of them and show them the uranium business. So it fell on to me and the taking of these two students around the area and I believe that one trip I took them - Happy Jack. We flew in from Green River down to Hystaff, when that mill was running at Hyte or just shortly after that. We hired a car there at Hyte to take around from Hyte up to the Happy Jack. The fellow that was working there at Happy Jack, the Superintendent at that time was a fellow by the name of Parker and we always called him Apple Parker. He was an old man and had been in the uranium business for years. He was back in the Camlines for Camline Chemical times. So Mr. Parker said you just go right ahead and take these men right through that mine any where you want to go and I will furnish you lights and everything from right here. So I took those men through that and that was the most beautiful thing a man ever saw. I've been through the Peck Mine, I've been through Temple Mountain and have known Temple Mountain for years and I went through this one and it was the most beautiful thing you ever saw. There was about four feet of ore in the Happy Jack at that time and they had drifts running all directions in there and the ore was all blocked and that is what they run that mill with down at Hyte down where they got their ore, and then they sold it then you know.
JM: Who did they sell it to?
HE: Texas 8. Texas 8 bought it then they went in trips. Well then I've been back to Happy Jack two times - twice or three times since then and stopped at the boys that work there. John Black he is a cousin of Calvin, he and Elmer Hearst they worked in there for several years. Still producing.
JM: You know some of the miners then that was working over in that area around the Happy Jack and Cottonwood and down in there. Want to comment on some of the gentlemen that were over there?
HE: Well, all of the miners that I knew at that time were awful good miners. They were good miners, they were good men. Some of them are retired. There's one fellow that lives right next to me in the trailer court down there, a fellow by the name of John Quarton and he mined in all of those mines. We have visited quite a lot about how the ore was produced and why he worked. He worked in Mes McNalley and worked in oh, a lot of places. Of course knowing the Shumway boys. The Shumway boys were always active in the mining business they done that for a long time and then Calvin, he produced a lot of ore and a wonderful person to know. Of course all of those miners were all good men.

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Slim Williams, he was a good miner, a good producer. Bob Davis, he is in Spry Canyon now. He's an old time uranium producer. But it is just like they all say "Well, we don't want to go back to work now because there's no price on the ore and the only mill we got is Atlas Corporation - no good.
JM: Did you ever do business with the Bill over there at Cottonwood? Didn't they have a Bill over there at one time at Cottonwood out there at Arch Canyon out that way?
HE: No, I never did any business with them. In fact I wasn't in that area at the time they were producing. I know some of them that worked in the area and that was about the size of it.
JM: Was that a pretty good bill over there as far as you could tell?
HE: Well, I don't think that was too good because it didn't last like it ought of done. Being in that particular area in there there should have been a lot of area that that mill could have takes care of and when it didn't the one at Mexican Hat got all of the ore and so forth. I don't believe it was just satisfaction like it should have been.
JM: Now the reason you didn't go that way with the ore was the fact that there wasn't any roads that way?
HE: There wasn't no roads that way and we had to fight the Colorado River where the ferry is. The ore from this particular area was the main outlet for this Green River way. Ninety-five was never a road so that you could get down North Fork to the ferry and go on to - and it would be farther that way too, you see and the only mill you could got to would be at Mexican Hat and it just wasn't feasible to try to pull the ore that way instead of this way especially during back in the time of the medal reserve at Thompson or the receiving station - if you went into Thompson you could make a round trip in a day to Thompson with the ore, weigh it out, sample it.
JM: Can you comment a little on - we have talked a little on the sampling job that you have done. Can you comment a little bit about the Samplers that worked for some of the mills. Their method of sampling.
HE: Yes. Now back in the time of Monticello. When they had the mill at Monticello we thought, our group, the people in this particular area thought that this was about as nice a sampling device as they had anywhere and I went into Grand Junction one time to a kind of a miner's meeting and we had it there and that was one of the questions that we brought up with the ABC. We thought the mills weren't giving us the right kind of sampling - so - Mr. Braugley said, "Well, gentlemen, I have been down to the Monticello mill and I have checked it from one end to the other. That is about as fair a sampling device as I have ever seen in the milling business. It looks very nice." Well, back in the older days you know you didn't run it through a crusher. When we sampled ore - when I sold ore to Bosley in Green River we had it in sacks and we dumped it out in a big cove

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and we had three or four men there pounding up the bigger chunks and they would take the shovel and muck that up on the cove like this - back and forth and then we would quarter that cove as near as we possibly could and we just kept quartering that sample until we got to under a pound sample. Well, now I used to claim that I don't know how we could make any better sampling out of ore that was sacked and hauled and handled and so on - I don't think it was done any better. In fact we lowered the board in just that way and that was the way we sampled our ore from Belmont when we hauled it to Denver. We took it right to Denver and dumped it right on the cement platform and that was the process we went through. There is the sampling device that they had at Grand Junction was just a tackle wheel on a conveyer belt after it went through the crusher, the rolls and so on and then went to the conveyer belt to the tanks, why it just had a sample. It just automatically took a little scoop of that and that went off by itself and then that was quartered and taken care of. But Monticello, the mill at Monticello - it had a sort of a weight deal when a certain amount of ore came off of that conveyer it got it's (??) and it was just a pan and that was the one that Mr. Bosley thought was about as good a sampling that was done anywhere.
JM: I understood some of the ones that were in charge of the sampling made rather a large salary in addition to what the company was paying. Did you hear of anything like that?
HE: I have never saw anything like that. In fact, I think to observe anything that way that you would have to be there more or less all of the time to see if anything like that went on. The way we always done, we went in and pulled on the scales, weighed the ore and took it to the trap and dumped it and got out of there and went back and got another load and filled out our weigh sheets and signed our names to the liquidation sheet and that was the size of it you either took it or you didn't.
JM: At the sampling gates they told you what -
HE: Yes, and a lot of times USD a lot of times I never done anything, I just trusted them 100% and was always satisfied. There was one particular time when Johnny Hill was General Superintendent at that time and we were digging ore out here at Trachyte and we had a nice bunch of ore, I think two truck loads of oar and of course there was Rider and Harald and I digging the oar and commented on the oar at night when we would come back at camp at night we would comment well, we done pretty good today we dug a ton and a half, 75 hundredths that's pretty good. We done fine. So when we shipped it into Grand Junction and I got the sheets back and it was only 42 hundredths and I called out to Floyd and said "You <now we don't have to accept this. You know doggone well this is wrong. This ore 75 Hundredths or else. So he showed me and I went to Grand Junction and Union Carbine had their office in the Equitable Building.

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I went up to the---opened the door and went in and there were bookkeepers and I told them I wanted to see Johnny Hill and this lady said "He's busy right now, you won't be able to see him for a while yet". So I said "Alright, I will be back at 1 o'clock and at 1 o'clock I am going to get to see him. She thought "Oh, Boy, he is a tough old bird" (Laughter). Any how I went back this time at 1 o'clock and said "Is Johnny in his office?" and she said he was but was busy and I said I didn't care if he was I'm going back to see him. So I went back and presented my case to him. I said "Johnny, you know better than that." I had the liquidation sheet and check and I said "Now listen this is not right, lets get right on the phone right now call Mack Benton, Mack was the General Superintendant of the mill and he said "You pick up the phone and call Mack". I said alright so I called Mack myself. I talked with Mack myself and told him, "Mack, I'm not satisfied with that one shipment of ore and gave him the number of the liquidation sheet and so on and he said "Ore? Let me check on that and he said I'll call you back in an hour. You be back there to the office in hour and I will call you back. I said "I sure will, Mack". So I came back to the office in about an hour and walked in there and didn't pay any attention to the girls - just went right on through and just sat down there and visited with Johnny for a little bit and Mack called back and of course he called for me and I talked to him and he said "Horace, we have made a mistake". I said that was fine and dandy that is what I thought maybe that you had made a mistake. I knew that ore should have brought 75 Hundredths. He said it brought 72 Hundredths. There was a fellow from California about that time. A wonderful person, and he was at our camp at about
that time that this happened. Johnny Hill sent me back a reject from (?) that I could go ahead and check it myself. I use to tell Mack, "Forget about these rejects. You know what your suppose to do. You run the ore and send us the liquidation sheets and forget about the rejects - we don't need them file up because we don't use them anyway but this particular one I accepted". I give it to this fellow from California and he took it down to California and had it run and sent me a regular liquidation sheet or sent me back the sample assay sheet and 72 Hundredth. Now I don't think that the way all of 'this was made out on this was anything but right. I was checking with Smith Emory and that was one of our best checking people in the whole western part of the country and they sent me back that liquidation with 72 Hundredths.
JM: Could you use this as a referee with - if you thought you weren't receiving the right assay report back. Could you ask for a referee and then have to accept this? Would you and the company have to accept this assay report?
HE: Now this is the way they used to do that years ago. They gave you a sample of the sample that they checked and they

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kept one and they put one off by itself to fall back on you might say. And it was very seldom that it had ever been when ever the assay people is good and I have never had any other people have had and they told me about it that these extra samples on them and a variation in the amount in the percentage but this was the only one - the one I just got through telling about that we ever had any trouble. That was suppose to be a customary rule that for the assayer to give you a reject and one of them and they keep one and if there was any conflict that made them run the reject. A reject was supposed to have been the amount if they would settle then.
JM: (??) was working with Union Carbide then?
HE: Yes.
JM: I imagine working with Union Carbine you were satisfied.
HE: Oh, Yeah, I never had any trouble with Union Carbide, no way. I think one other time they sent the checks and liquidation sheets and checks and so on and the checks were short. They put the wrong number on the checks. It was only a day or two that Mack caught it and sent the balance and the rest of the check and it had an explanation in the
letter. But Union Carbide was small and they treated us wonderful. I never cared for VCA and they had some wonderful men working for them. VCA had some mighty wonderful men. I knew a lot of them.
JM: Would you classify that VCA was an aggressive company?
HE: No, I wouldn't. I would classify Union Carbide as the aggressive company I mean for the miner himself, that is to help him and so on. VCA required a lot of claims of their own and then they would lease them out to different miners, different people for them to mine and I never talked to one of them. Not one of them leases that ever was satisfied with VCA family.
JM: He has quite a few men around Hanksville here that are in mining.
HE: Not right at this particular time. There has been. There has been quite a few people in Hanksville that has been in the uranium business. Mr. Johnson of the Johnson Boys has been in the uranium business at Temple Mountain and the trucking business and they mined here at North Wash and they were very good boys. Very fine people.
JM: Can you comment a little bit about the early life here in Hanksville? We have been talking about your life out at the mine, how about the town itself here?
HE: Well, when I was a boy - that is old enough to know - to observe a lot of things, it was more or less livestock it was more or less - each one of the people - each one of the families had a little place, a small acreage and they had a few cattle all of them. Every one of them had a few cattle and that was their living and then go to work - work for wages and then work with the cattle and so one and that was
their livelihood for years. They seemed to have enough livestock to make a year around livelihood why then they

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would work and take :are of stuff besides until the Bureau of Land Management came in. That was one of the worst things that ever happened to this particular area. Because you had to have a permit and if you didn't have just the right amount of acreage to justify the amount of cattle that you had they would cut you and then the little people like these - for instance like these boys working for the State Road Commission right here in Hanksville right here
at this station. My brother runs the maintaining foreman. Well now every one of those boys back in years ago that worked that had a cow or two and they issued a free use permit to these boys to begin with. Well they had eight or ten cows on the range and they wanted to take care of them and that meant a few extra dollars in case they got into
sickness or something like that. They could sell a cow and get a few dollars out of it. Well, then finally the Bureau cut that off entirely. Well, when they cut them off that didn't leave them anything extra but their wages and people moved out because they didn't have, they couldn't make it. Back in those days - back in the early days it was practically all stock raising and they worked for different stockmen. When I was a boy, I went to work for a - I herded sheep when I was nine years old for $20 a month and then I worked back in 1919,

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the summer of 1919, I worked for Standard Chemical Company and I owned that little old ranch out there for X25 a month. Packed water out to that miner that was working out in the uranium business back out there where I had a concave tank sitting right on the horse. I lead the horse and the pick, I couldn't lift the tank up on the horse why I would fill the tank while it was on him so I would lead the horse in the creek and then I would take a shovel and dip it up and fill it on one side of the horse and then on the other. I would take it out to the miners and then the miners would take the tanks off. That was back in 191'3.
JM: Wasn't that the summer that Glen was born?
HE: The summer that Glen was born was 1919 - yes. I was just 10 years old.
JM: Did you just work in the summer time?
HE: Yes, then went to school in the winter time.
JM: Now, can you comment on some of the changes that have taken place in Hanksville since 1919 to the present time?
HE: Oh, yes there has been quite a lot of changes. There are changes in roads, our schools have been better, we have had better accommodations for other people who have come in and we finally - back in 1947 and '45 and '47 we got the airport. Then we finally got some - we used that for some communications to the outside and then we finally got the power in the area and now we've got the telephones. Very
nice. We've got roads, oil roads all through the country. Like in one particular time, back in, I think it was back in 1921 or '22 I went to Green River with my father and drove a four horse outfit to Green River and we hauled a

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net wire, we had a shipment of new wire come to Green River and then we had to go over with the horses over to Green River to haul this wire. There was a little young fellow who worked for the airport and I was talking to him, he was interested in what I had done in my life and I said - I came up with this particular story - I said "I drove my four horse outfit over to Green River". He said "How long did it take you"? I said "Well, the very best condition it took us seven days to make a round trip." He said, "Well, I wonder what was the matter with those horses?" (Laugh) Well, then I made several trips with my father hauling and they run out of the livery stable here for the sheep men. That was all the wagons and everything at that time and of course it was all horse, every thing was done by horses and they run out of stopping place and the little store and my father hauled the provisions that come in.
JM: Did they have a blacksmith here?
HE: Oh, you bet. They had a very best blacksmith. JM: Can you remember who it was?
HE: Yes, sir. Neil McDougal was one of the blacksmith that was here at that time and one of my - what I always called him Uncle Ruf Stotter. He was an A-1 blacksmith. When I was in the 6th or 7th grade we had a school teacher that was a blacksmith and that was one of our studies - was this blacksmith in the afternoon. Like when maybe twice a week or something like that - we went to the blacksmith shop and we learned how to weld without welding compound and sharpen a pick and tempers and make drills, make chisels and so on and put -- then put a cork on horseshoes. When they bought the horseshoes, you know without - during the winter time you would have to put a sharp cork on. Well they bought a sharp corks and they you would put the corks on there and welded it on there. That was one of our studies, he was showing us how to do it.
JM: Was that back in 19-
HE: Well, that was back in 1923 or '24 or '5 along in there. JM: Pretty useful knowledge.
HE: Yes and I have used that knowledge ever since. It happens all the time, "Well, you have to come and sharpen my pick for me I can't temper that pick they just won't hold up - you have to come and do it. I have my boys so that they can - they are doing a pretty good job so I can make anything in the blacksmith shop and welding - it has been too long since I done any welding but I can still weld a
link in a chain. Those days and back in the early days you couldn't run out to Green River and get some of that work
done. You either figured out how to do it or you don't.
JM: Can you comment a little bit, maybe, on - did your father tell you some stories about the Roost up here.
HE: My Grandfather.
JM: Your Grandfather?
HE: Yes.
JM: Can you fill me in on some of the stories?
HE: Well, Grandfather was - he came here, now I might be a

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little cloudy on them dates but I think it was in '82 or somewhere when he first come to Hanksville. He got this ranch across here - that land right in here and he started out with this same deal, you know with the wagons and made a livery stable and took care of the horses and mules and so on. Then back in 1898 along in there was when the Colorado Boom was on and they hauled that grates down on the Colorado River from South Hansons Creek. Well he was doing all the freigh'ten - he freighted that stuff into there. Well, then he when he came into here he bought a bunch of cattle. He had cattle on the range. He was progressive, you know, about sticking to things around him, you know.
JM: Can we get your Grandfather's name now?
HE: Charlie. One of the particular times was Butch Cassidy. Old Butch, he came to stay with Granddad and worked with him when left over Circleville and come here into the company and he worked with Granddad for, oh - I think it was all of one winter and then, you know, different times and then right during the time when tie was with the Robber's Roost Gang, you know, Butch was running that Gang.
He always spent his time with them. He would make a round trip someway and would always come back to Granddad. One particular night, Granddad was telling me about, Grandma had a long legged, nice, beautiful mare, Shoddy, that she used for own personal use. She was a dandy. Well, a knock came on the door about 12 o'clock at night and "Uncle Charlie," Butch always called Granddad Uncle Charlie. He said "Uncle Charlie, I've got to have a fresh horse". Granddad said, "Well, you know about the horses, go help yourself". So he went and took this mare of Grandma's and left his horse and rode "Shoddy" and away he went. Two or three days he came back, picked up his horse and left
Grandma's mare. Well, a different time, now when they were out this Castle Gate Payroll Granddad said "I know just as well as I know my own name that Castle Gate Payroll stayed in my place for three days. He just brought a satchel in there and he said "Uncle Charlie, put this behind the counter and I will be back in a day or two and pick it up." Well just such things as that was always happening with
Butch all the time. Mother right today, you can ask her and she will say that Butch was just one of the guys. Of course there was some of them guys, now that Walker, he was one of the bad ones and I guess from my understanding hearing the stories back and forth that maybe that there was a time or two that Butch felt like killing Walker two or three times for things that he pulled. It really made it tough on the rest of the gang that this Walker would pull on them. Back 'n the time when I was just could remember there wasn't: anybody only but just those stinkers. Little old petty - some cow thieves around the country and different: people like that that come through the country and they would just come in and stay a while

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and away they are gone and you never know where they went. Jack Moore and Jack Cotrill, they were that type of people. They stole cattle and they stole horses and so on. They weren't any bank robbers or anything like that but they just were the petty type. I guess I can't remember, just can't remember Jack Cotrill.
JM: Did it bothered it Grandfather's-
HE: No. Never, riot that he ever knew of. Granddad and I were very close.
JM: Now, did I understand that most of the people in this area at that time thought that Butch was a pretty good - ahhh
HE: Well, most of them. All of the old gentlemen that was in the country, Charlie Hanks and quite a lot of the older people they never had anything bad to say about Butch. He was one of those types, you know, that robs from the rich and gave to the poor. Whenever they needed anything in Hanksville, why, if Butch happened to be here why he always made a good donation to the churches or anything that they had in mind why Butch was always good to donate to them and I don't know, it always seemed like to me that Butch was that the stories that I've heard that he wasn't never a bad person. That is he would go and rob a bank alright and he wasn't - he didn't harm anybody. Granddad always told me that Butch Cassidy never shot anyone. I don't think he ever shot a guy any time that he was along with the gang.
JM: Now there has been some stories that Butch was killed in South America and some that he died in Seattle. Which one of these do you favor?
HE: I don't think Butch was killed in South America, myself. I don't think so because I think Butch came back here about the time that his Mother passed away and I talked to the fellow over to Circleville several years ago about that and he said "I think Butch Cassidy was right there at the funeral the day they buried his Mother". Now I couldn't
say but that is my idea. That is the way I feel about it - that he was never killed in South America. I think he had come back.
JM: Does some of the other people that rode in the gang - can you recall any stories about any of the other men - the Sundance Kid?
HE: Well, No. Granddad he never talked about the Sundance Kid very much. He was always talking about the McCarty Gang, you know, the McCarty Boys. Now the particular time that I felt was, the one story that he told me was about the Delta plan, when they robbed the bank in Delta. They went and paged that for several days. They stayed there and they were just wonderful guys and just made those locations perfect and they made the bank robbers just fine. They got along with the bank robbers. They went down the main street of Delta and this fellow, Simpson was his name, was a sharp shooter, he shot one of the McCarty Boys. Then he shot his father and then the boy turned around to go back to help his father and Butch hollered back to him, "You can't

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do him any good now, you had better to come with me", and Butch took the loot and went. Well, now, those kind of stories Granddad use to tell about what Butch done.
JM: Did you say that Butch worked as a ranch hand?
HE: He worked for my Grandfather as a ranch hand.
JM: Did the rest of the wild bunch that came back here, did they work in their off times?
HE: No, that was prior to Butch's going and joining the wild bunch, you know. That was when he first came from Circleville and stole them horses and came over here and then he worked here that winter for my Grandfather and stayed here and of course there was no communications or anything like that in the country and it was easy for him to hide out here than it was any place. He got along very nicely.
JM: Can you remember any stories that your Grandfather might have told about a lawman that came in this area looking for Butch Cassidy?
HE: Oh, yes, yes. There was one particular one by the name of Joe Bush. He was a United States Deputy Marshall. He came into the country and of course he was after the whole gang or whatever happened. Well, and then this Mrs. Moore, and Jack Moore, had this little Granite Place, well we got it afterwards and they did just like Granddad did - he took care of them. If you didn't, why there might be something happen to you, you know. It was that idea that they had and they treated them alright. But this Parker, I guess he was quite a mean judge and this Joe Bush and Uncle Rufe Stottered seems like George McClellen, that's the way if I remember right now it was George McClellen and Joe Bush and Rufe Stottered. The house is kind of in a canyon and it opens up into the desert. So they figured that this Walker was up to Granite and Joe Bush went up and knocked on the door. Mrs. Moore came to the door and Joe told her he was after Walker if Walker was there and she told him no and she slammed the door in his face and he had a sawed off shot gun so he shot a hole in the door and the door flew back open and went in and Walker wasn't gone and while he was making the investigation in the house and back and forth, why he looked out the door and there was Walker was going down through the desert. Uncle Rufe Stottered was on one side of that canyon and McClellen was on the other and they had 30-30 Winchester rifles and that Walker just laid over on his horse and went right down through them and I remember Uncle Rufe telling me, he said, I've never seen a horse fly before in my life but that one did and they were shooting at him as he was going down there. When he got into Beaver Box about four or five miles right straight down the desert and then the Canyon goes in. Well when they got into there he could kill a whole army of them. They didn't dare go down into that canyon. They would go down to the Malta Big Wash and then go right out what they call Angel Trail and right back to the Roost. Uncle Rufe

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said he never saw a horse run as fast as that horse did when they were shooting at him. That Walker was just leaned down over that saddle and just went right down through the desert while they were shooting at him.
JM: Was there any lawmen killed over in this area looking for
HE: Well, no, not that I know of. I can't remember Granddad ever saying anybody got killed. They just spent that one winter - two winters and then at different times came back through at Robber's Roost. That one winter they had quite a set up out at Robber's Roost. I don't know of any body being killed - that is lawmen. They shot an Indian scout out there, they had a Indian scout, an Indian half breed out at the Roost that they had on guard all the time. He kind of went off his guard and this Walker killed him, shot him. Of course he was suppose to be one their gang.
JM: Are there people still left in the area that would remember some of the wild bunch that actually would have seen them?
HE: Well, Mother would be about the only one that I - Charlie Hanks was quite familiar with them. He just passed away here recently. And then Silves folks knew all about the wild bunch. They knew a lot of those fellows. There isn't any body right now but Mother, I guess, right now that remembers any thing about them.
JM: Can we change the subject and talk a little bit about the mail service when you came in.
HE: The mail service then, my father - they had a Pony Express Green River they kept that here until 1914 and my father rode from here to Green River on a horse. Took the mail out of here one day and back the next, three times a week. He was on that desert for six solid months and never had a day off. He would go to Santafel and change horses and go on into Green River and stay all night and then come back and change horses at Santafel then ride that horse back then the next morning he would pick up his mail bags and away he would go.
JM: Three times a week?
HE: Three times a week. Then they had a Pony Express mail route from Kingsville down to Danecsville and that was the mail route here and then they also had a mail route from here to Hite. That was after the boom of the Colorado River Boom you know the gold boom then the run a pony express to Hite
JM: Can you remember who was postmaster?
HE: You betcha. E.H. McDougal, a fellow who came here when - he was one of the first settlers who came into Hanksville. He was postmaster - he must have been the postmaster for 15, 20 or 30 years. Twenty years any how. A long time.
JM: Is the Post office located in approximately the same location now that it was?
HE: No, the post office - that post office building was - that post office building would be about where this alley-ways goes between the school and these buildings on this side. It would be about right near that alley-way. Right where

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that - there is a school building and there’s two houses this side of the school. It would be right close to where that last house is there.
JM: The postmaster was a pretty important man at that time, wasn't he?
HE: Yes, the postmaster has always been an important person in Hanksville. So many times now back even when we had to file our assessment and the application called for a Notary and that was the only thing we had as witness, the postmaster. I've still got some of my papers that Mrs. Wells got our name on as the post master.
JM: I seemed to have read someplace that postmasters some times acted as a banker for --
HE: You bet. Acted like a banker, cashier, or anything, it was always like oh--you know when you would send out - like if there happens to be some of the checks would be mailed to them, you know. You would send with the mail carrier to have the check cashed and he would have to bring the cash back for him. If he didn't have it in his own hands in the post office why he would always have the post carrier bring the cash back. Especially all government checks, all certified check would be cashed by the postmaster.
JM: Now was the postmaster a elected position or was it something they selected a person to take his place or was it an inherited job.
HE: No, it was selected by the postal department at that time. If I remember right, they made an application to the postal department for this particular job. Back in that time all the postmaster got at that time was a cancellation. Just a ?? cancellation, oh C.O.D. fees or something like that. But I think it was practically all cancellation.
JM: Can you remember the type of government that the town had at that time. Did they have a mayor or sheriff?
HE: No, no mayor, no sheriff, no nothing. When I was a kid they had nobody only just you know, maybe a sheriff would come in every once in a while or something like that we made our own laws and that was it and people abided by the rules and regulations and that was the size of it.
JM: Do you remember any serious violations that you took care of?
HE: No. I don't remember any - oh, one particular time we had some trappers come out of Wyoming. A fellow by the name of Mitchel and another fellow by the name of Piedler and another by the name of McDermott. Dad and I had a little bunch of cattle out at Granite and we lived in Green River at that time and I came over and stayed all winter to take care of those cattle and trapped. Trapped coyotes and cats and so on and these people come in from around Vernal or some where in that part of the country and they come through the country and they come by our place at Granite and on into what we called Butler Wash. There was spring water there at the head of Butler Wash and they made their camp there and the Meach Boys they had cattle in there in

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the mountains and we had cattle and they went up to hide in the Hedder Mountains and they found where some one had killed a beef. So, they came down and talked to me about it and the asked me about the people that was camped there. Asked me if [ had any idea that they was alright and so on and I said "Yes, as far as I'm concerned they are
alright - they treated me fine. They came to our place our guest and I spent dinner at their camp and it wasn't only about a week - oh it was about a week I think after the Meach's came through with their horses, cattle and so on - they came back and the Garfield County sheriff and the Wang's County sheriff and then they deputized me to go back to get these fellows. This McDermott was an escaped convict out of the prison at Salt Lake. He escaped out there at the point of the mountain and he came down here with these Piedler and Mitchel

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BEGIN Part 4

That was what he was scared about, he took the horses - when we drove up we had two Model Ts and we pushed them half way up there and got up into that wash and right where they were camped. When we showed up there this little McDermott was right up the wash and I could see him up the wash a little ways and he was coming back with his ?? he had taken the horses up there and turned them loose and I thought it was kind of a rough deal and this Mitchell he was out dipping up some water out of this spring when we drove up there and this Garfield County Sheriff walked right out there and stuck his gun right in this fellow ribs without reading a warrant or telling what he had come for or a thing. The old man was a tough old bird, he had been held - poked in the ribs before you could tell that and he said "I would like to know what you're doing that for" he said this to the Garfield County Sheriff and he said "Why don't you read the warrant - what is the matter with you." The old man told him. Old Accoff passed me his gun and I had mine on my belt and he passed me his gun for me to hold the old man's ribs while he read the warrant and I wouldn't do it. I said you don't need to poke that man in the belly with that gun – go ahead and read the warrant to him. He read the warrant and
said "Well, there's something wrong somewhere. This Peter was over in an old mining camp on North Fork with another old fellow who lived over there and they was ??? mining. They had little draw horses that packed on their backs and they were trapping aid mining. So, when this little McDermott seen us coming he beat it - he got out of there right now, went up teat canyon as fast as he could go and got up there and got on his horse, bare back. He made a circle on us then it just came dark on us then, it was just about dark on us then and all we had was the old man Mitchell. They hand cuffed him set him in the car and left me to guard and I said "If I had a key or a chisel I would cut you lose", and he said "No, you wouldn't, I wouldn't let you cut me lose". The next morning I took the Wang's County Sheriff and I went over to the - I just went up to the cabin and
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Bill Hicks was sitting in the cabin and Peter was back in there doing the cooking or getting their breakfast - it was quite early when I got back there. I borrowed a horse from Oakland they had a sleep outfit up there and I rode over there. Well, I told Bill, I said, I came after this man Piedler, we have a warrant for him. Bill said "He's right
there, if you want him you get him. I just stepped inside the cabin and asked him to come out and I read the warrant and he said "Fine and dandy, if there's something wrong – I never killed none of your beef." So we took him, he came right along with us and everything. This little McDermott was just picky. So he went and got up in those rocks and watched the camp down there so when we all left the camp little ole Joe he went into his camp and got his saddle on his horse and picked up his Winchester and just as he picked up his Winchester old Alcoff stepped up to the door the door of the tent and got him and they loaded them all up in the Model Ts and so on, took them to Panguitch. Well, they asked me about it - they asked me if I ate any
beef at their camp and I said, "I sure did. I eat some of the finest beef I ever eat in my life." They said did you see it? I said yes, I seen a hind quarter of a beef hanging in a cedar tree right back of the pit and when they got down to Panguitch well they had a hind quarter of beef and then they had a bill for a hind quarter of beef. They turned the boys lose and this little Joe he went over to Trikite and stayed there all the rest of that winter. He stayed right there all winter and nobody knew anything about him - they had his picture down at Panguitch and everything and of course I visited with him so much that winter all that time and I asked him what he had done and he told me about the route that he made there the night when ole Acoff stuck his gun in Mitchell's belly and he was telling me about it and the only reason I run is because I escaped from prison. Well then he went over and worked for George Waldemore that winter and the next spring George said "I'm taking you back up to the prison". Joe said George talked to him and they went back up to the Point of the Mountain and he stayed there 30 days and George went to the parole board and got him out on his jurisdiction. Kept him on the ranch for about - right close to three years. Turned out to be a mighty good boy.
JM: Did Mitchell move on after
HE: Yes, they took their outfit and moved out of the country.
He and Peter went together. They had a nice outfit, nice
horses, nice wagon, nice camp everything was alright. I
never did hear any more about them. I got a Christmas card
from this man Peter this winter. He was up in Sheridan, Wyoming.
JM: Did you ever find out who got the beef?
HE: No, never did find out. Never did but the judge turned
them loose. It was only about two or three days after they
took them on to Panguitch Ford Webber came to me and said

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"Some one go with me" I was trapping up in there and he said "Come and go with me and I will take you up where they killed that beef". So I went up there and there wasn't a thing that I could see. I couldn't see one earthly thing only a little bit of hair was laying over by a rock and that could have been anything and then a great big cedar fire. They built a fire to burn the carcass. That is supposedly. Any how, I knew, my own personal self that this particular beef that they were suppose to have killed was there a few days prior to these fellows coming in cause I seen it my self, and then Meaches went right in there and they found this veal and they were suppose to have found the hide with some hair on it that hadn't burned up. Well, anyhow the evidence that they presented in Panguitch didn't go over with the Judge. I asked Joe about it after he got to working over here with George and I asked him time and time again and I said - and I would kid him about it I would say "It would be alright Joe if you would ride that critter down there but don't kill any beef " and he'd get quite a lot of kick out of me kidding him about killing the beef. He said "We never killed no beef - there was never no beef killed there." He said what we had there, a half quarter of beef and that's all the beef we had. So I don't know, I always thought it was a little skeptical - I think some body else did the job and blamed it on to them.
JM: You said you didn't have a sheriff and didn't need one in this particular area.
HE: Well, there might have been times we needed a sheriff, you know, but I can't remember anything that happened, you know, that we couldn't take care of. There was a little about cow theiven going on, people killing the beef that didn't belong to them and if they did they needed it and that's the way the people always thought about it, you
know. One particular family that come in here that was poor and destitute and so on - well, they caught him with a beef in his camp. They never done anything about it, they just didn't pay no attention to it just told him not to do it. Maybe if he ever done it again, why they may have just handled him there selves. That was more or less the law.
JM: You do have a Deputy assigned to the Town now.
HE: Yes, we have a Deputy assigned. I was a Justice of Peace here for quite a while and also Deputy Sheriff of Garfield County and of course the Attorney General got a hold of that and me having two different positions and he wrote me a letter and told me that I had to get rid of one of the other of them so I got rid of the Justice of Peace deal right a way quick.
JM: As the Deputy Sheriff here did you have much to do?
HE: No, just serving papers. In the mining business you know they would bind equipment and they wouldn't pay their wages and so on like that. Then I would have to go and serve papers on them and tell them to appear in court a certain time and just a general routine. Then if three or four

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different people, one in particular about when Sylvia and I first went over to Trachyte there was a fellow come into the country and the roads were terrible, you know, going like going down to the Colorado River. Well he went down to the Colorado River and he had a Model A, looked like it might have been a little Model A coupe and then tie cut the back end of it off, you know and fixed so he could pack his stuff in - he went down on what we called the Shark Fore and his outfit was there and everything and he disappeared. Well they naturally think that he drowned in the river so, sixteen years later there was a man found up under a rock - a skeleton under a rock and course, me being the Deputy Sheriff I had to go get the remains. Our oldest boy went with me and we took one of these egg cartons - the case and we gathered up all of the remains and put it in that and I packed it on my back, had to go down off these steep ledges and let yourself down with a rope and so on to get out of it. Well, now, as near as I could figure it out that man had got up on there some way, probably got lost and was choking and instead of just laying there and suffering himself to death he shot himself. Now that was the only thing I could see because I couldn't find any pieces of the skull, any big pieces and just one portion of the jaw bone and so one. In his hand - he had a glove on and his hand was clutched around a old 34 decayed rifle and was loaded clear to the gills and one empty in the barrel. Now that is what I come up with. And then another time there was a lady during that time that I was Sheriff, there was a lady that was out drilling for uranium way down on the other side of the mountain, way down toward the Delmont area and we had just a little bit of a cutter, it was oh, maybe ten or twelve -Feet long, just a bed, you know on the trailer and this lady weighed about 250 pounds and she had a heart attack in that trailer and died. Well, I had to go down and get that and that was quite an experience. We flew in there, they had a little airport down there and this man, Bill Wells was here. He and I, we flew down there and got off and then they met us there with a pickup so we went over to the trailer where she was and just a little bit of a narrow door there - now, that is quite a job getting a big lady like that out of that little narrow
trailer. So we got here back and loaded her right on the back end of the pickup you know and then went to the airport, this little airport where the plane was sitting. There was a brisk wind come up and side winds and we didn't think we could get off and we didn't think we could get off there so, there was another one down ten miles and we hauled her down there and when we put her in the airplane, why we had to take the seats out of the airplane. The seat that I rode in and the back seat and take them out and then put her in and put her feet up under the banner board and then to get her through the door and then I had to ride straddle her from there to Price. (Laugh) She was a big

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lady. Then there was a time or two when one fellow got blowed up and killed, different things like that that you had to go and investigate them.
JM: Was this a mining accident?
HE: Yes.
JM: When was your last year as Sheriff there?
HE: Well, I guess I am still Deputy Sheriff. I tried to get them to take my badge back but every time I ask the main guy he says "No sir, you keep it". Now he is in with the Liquor Commission, I don't know - I don't think he wants me to give the badge up but I've never been active only just filling out some papers with Rex or something like that.
JM: What about the Deputy that is assigned here now? I noticed a car here.
HE: Yes, that is the Wayne car. He is the Wayne County man.
He is the Deputy Sheriff and they call him all times at night and so on to investigate wrecks and different things that happens. Any body that happens to be coming this way that they got any trail on or any thing, why they put him on guard.
JM: Can you ever remember having a jail in town here? HE: No, never did have a jail. No jail.
JM: When you were Justice of Peace here did you just operate out of your home?
HE: Yes, just operated out of the house, right at home. Wasn't much to it, you know.
JM: Did they have a Justice of Peace now?
HE: Yes.
JM: You say you do not have a Mayor now?
HE: No. You don't have a Mayor in a little town like this
because it not incorporated. Unincorporated town yet and when you incorporate it you have to have a regular City Board, Mayor, Council.
JM: Well how do you come to any decisions here in the town about something that is being done?
HE: Well, it's County handled, see, on an unincorporated - it is a precinct alright but it is an uncorporated town so if there is something that has to be done why, it has to go through the County. Like licenses, city licenses or town licenses or any thing like that. Then we have our own set up on our water system and so on like that. We take care of that through our Company.
JM: Do you have Stock Holders in the Company?
HE: No, no Stock Holders in the Company.
JM: I wonder, Mr. Ekker, if we could talk a little bit about
the population of Hanksville.
HE: Well, it had varied from 60 to 100 or better and then during the boom they had a lot of trailers move in during the uranium boom and - but they would just come in and then go. But I think right at that particular time it would be right close to 100.
JM: So these people that came in during the boom time, they didn't stay very long?
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HE: No, they maybe stayed six months or something like that. Just came in for maybe a month and do their assessment work on the claims that they had and then they would go back home. Then we had oil people in here. They drilled quite a lot of oil wells, that is throughout through this country south of us and we had those all the oil personnel. That was a period of time, maybe three years and during that time there was one rig running somewhere, maybe two.
JM: Can we talk a little bit about what the population does for recreation?
HE: Well, they just about make their own recreation. Now in particular, like on the Fourth of July they all get together and have a program and dances and ball games and different games of all kinds. Usually it is pretty nice during that time, now the 24th is our Centennial, that is the 24th of July well, then the Mormons all get together
and they have a celebration. And then during Christmas time, why, they all kind of get together at their homes and so on and have ball games and things like that and that is about the size of the recreation.
JM: What about the social life for the teenagers and the young adults?
HE: Well, that is one thing that is bad. We don't - there isn't enough here that you could do anything with that and the younger people go out and get on jobs or go to school and then their gone. That is the end of it - there is nothing here to hold them. If we had a mill or something that they could make a living here why, they would be here
but so many of them are gone. Now, the young people, there's not anything here for them, they just got to go out to get their jobs.
JM: You say high school kids have to go 120 miles a day?
HE: Well, 120 miles, that is a round trip. Well, just might as well say 120 miles, it is 114.
JM: Are many of them finishing school now?
HE: Yes, they, practically all of them are finishing school now. There aren't many drop outs.
JM: Do you have the same problem that some of the other cities do - other towns do that are a little larger - do you have the same teenage problems and the drug problems here?
HE: No. Nothing like that. That is so far that we know of. There might be one of those young boys that come in but as far as I can know about any drug problems there isn't any
in this particular little community. And our young boys are pretty good boys - they are pretty good.
JM: Do they do any rodeoing?
HE: Yes, they do a little rodeoing.
JM: Is Sutton engaged in rodeo?
HE: Yes, he - I kind of get after him when he wants to go, if there isn't anything too bad. I tried that when I was young.
JM: Is there any rodeo right in here in Hanksville or do you have to go outside?

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HE: You have to go out. They have a rodeo in Green River and one up at usually they have what they call a Cow Boy Day in Green River and

END Part 4

BEGIN Part 5

they have a Rodeo and a County Fair and a Rodeo with that and quite a lot of-the young boys go help with them. Then years ago we all was - the 4th of July we always tried to have a little rodeo here you know. The kids riding calves and so on.
JM: I understood the last 4th of July you chase a greased pig. HE: Yes, four little kids chased a pig.
JM: I think one of your brothers wound up with two of them, I heard.
HE: Yes, Jeff finally got two of them. Only his daughters caught one and then one of the other boys in town caught one and he sold it to Jeff so he could have a pair.
JM: What about automobiles for the young adults here now, is it more mobile community now that you have the roads does the young adults own this, type of transportation?
HE: Well, yes, some of them own cars. Like Mary and our boys, when, course when they worked and earned their own money and bought their own automobiles with our help, you know, we showed them what to buy and so on and the boys awful nice about doing those things, never had any trouble with
them in any way. Oh they get to speeding once in a while.
JM: Turn one over once in awhile.(Laugh)
HE: (Laugh) Turn one over once in a while but it was never serious. We always got along awful nice but it seems like to me a young boy now days after they get into their teens that is one of the first things they want is an automobile and our boys were the same way. They worked hard, they worked on these oil rigs, they worked on construction, they
done everything. That was one of the things that they had in mind was to buy them an automobile right off the bat so they could have something to go get around the country in.
JM: We have the official population count as of right now at 128.
HE: (Laugh).(END OF TAPE)
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